80% vs Serialized: questions

[D.B. Cooper]

I have a coupleof questions about 80% lowers, and I would like to discuss some of those concerns with folks who know. All of these questions are predicated on the concept that there will be an AWB in the next 2-3 years, and that said AWB will be at least as restrictive as the one during the 1990s.

Legal issues. As I understand it, 80% lowers are legal as long as I build my own lower and never sell it or bequeath it. I understand I have to use my own tools. I understand that I'm not required to serialize it or identify it any way. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

My larger concern is, if/when an AWB passes, it may create a "pre-ban" and "post ban" gun. If you recall, the '94 ban created a post ban gun that could not have a flash suppressor, bayonet lug, a magazine over 10 rounds, and probably a bunch of other stuff I don't recall. If one had an AR15 with an 80% lower with an upper that had those pre-ban markers on it (bayonet lug, etc), how would one prove to the authorities that the gun was, indeed, a "pre-ban" gun? How would one prove that the lower had been built prior to the passing of the ban? Would it not be better, in this narrowly-defined scenario, to have a commercially produced lower, with a serial number and a 4473? Additionally, how would one prove that one's 30 round magazines were "pre-ban?"

What are the common legal issues that people have to deal with in regards to 80% lower.

Tooling and the machining process. I've read that most of these 80% lowers end up being hack job abominations. It seems that one can machine these using either a hand-held drill, a hand-held router, or a drill press. Let's just automatically toss out the hand held drill. I've got enough a mechanical background to know that's going to be a goat rope. Of the other two, which is the preferred method for producing the tightest tolerances and best results?

 

[Varminterror]

You do have the option to serialize it, or otherwise make an identifying mark, following which you are free to take a photo of said, establishing provenance of “pre-ban” status.

I do not, however, share a naive opinion any bill brought forth as an AWB will have allowance for pre-ban. They’re looking to close access to guns NOW, not in the eventual future.

Stop wasting your time looking for such slight nuance loopholes. Contact your congressmen, representatives, Governor, and senators. Donate to 2A backing PAC’s and lobbyist groups. No law shall pass in America which isn’t supported by a majority vote of Americans OR THAT OF THEIR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES. We, the People, hold the power, even if most people are too damned lazy to exercise it.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

You do have the option to serialize it, or otherwise make an identifying mark, following which you are free to take a photo of said, establishing provenance of “pre-ban” status.

Any serial number I might engrave on a lower that I build would be meaningless in legal terms. If I engrave "001" on my lower, what does that mean? How does that prove date of manufacture? Even if I engrave today's date, what does that prove? I can engrave any date I want, at anytime I want.

I do not, however, share a naive opinion any bill brought forth as an AWB will have allowance for pre-ban. They’re looking to close access to guns NOW, not in the eventual future.

You may very well be correct. But what you're suggesting is an Australian buy back plan. If that happens, then none of this matters.

No law shall pass in America which isn’t supported by a majority vote of Americans OR THAT OF THEIR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES.

I agree with you, but it's my view that the tide is turning in favor of an AWB (and in favor of liberal policies in general). I believe Trump's election was a one-off that won't be repeated. It's only a matter of time. We are, at the moment, experiencing the calm before the storm.

 

[LoonWulf]

Something else to consider is state law. If your state (or possibly even county) require you to register a firearm, as they do here in hawaii, even if you build it yourself you have to serialize and register the gun.
Personally the only reason i see to do an 80% lower is because you want to, or your local ffl fees are ludicrous.

 

[Varminterror]

How does that prove date of manufacture?

Read my post again - metadata in the PHOTO I mention would be your provenance. Not the engraving itself. That coupled with the receipt of purchase for the 80%, establishing a timeline.

Building an 80% also does NOT preclude you from selling the firearm at a later date. Search the ATF site, that’s in a FAQ’s section. Been there, done that. Some of us have been doing the 80% thing, even the Form 1 thing, for a long time. It’s really not as complicated as some people make it out to be.

 

[jmorris]

Any serial number I might engrave on a lower that I build would be meaningless in legal terms.

Easy, set it up on a forum 1 as an SBR. Whatever you have engraved on it at that point will be quite meaningful.

You can build them, you can sell them but you can’t build them for sale. All the other rules apply as well. The ATF will send you their “rule book”, they didn’t charge me a penny when I called them before building my 50 BMG.

Personally I have never gotten the 80% build, it’s not like you built the entire receiver yourself so it’s not a monumental achievement and if I put on my tinfoil hat and say “the man” doesn’t know I have it, so what? I have sold lots of firearms to folks without paper work and if one were going to be a criminal and possess one after they are illegal, (if that ever happens) just build one then. The only thing keeping people following the law are their actions.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Legal issues. As I understand it, 80% lowers are legal as long as I build my own lower and never sell it or bequeath it. I understand I have to use my own tools. I understand that I'm not required to serialize it or identify it any way. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

There's no federal prohibition on transferring home made guns. What is against the law is to manufacture with the intent to distribute without a license. If you do a couple eighty percent builds and sell one to a buddy sometime down the road, it's the same as selling any other title I firearm. If you do a couple dozen and sell them all, ATF is gonna have a problem with it unless you're an FFL07 or FFL10 and they're properly marked & documented.

Tooling and the machining process. I've read that most of these 80% lowers end up being hack job abominations. It seems that one can machine these using either a hand-held drill, a hand-held router, or a drill press. Let's just automatically toss out the hand held drill. I've got enough a mechanical background to know that's going to be a goat rope. Of the other two, which is the preferred method for producing the tightest tolerances and best results?

Well, a vertical mill is the preferred method, but absent that, the router with a quality jig will produce the best results. As well, using drill presses is dangerous. Most have a Jacobs taper chuck mount, and the chuck can come loose with lateral pressure. Though a vertical mill may look like an overgrown, glorified drill press, regular drill presses aren't suitable for milling operations.

 

[hdwhit]

D.B. Cooper asked:
If I engrave "001" on my lower, what does that mean?

It means that it is not D.B.Cooper's "002".

 

[GarySTL]

Just adding that the 5DTactical jig or their new Pro jig does a wonderful job. The Pro model can do AR15, AR10, and AR9 80% lowers. Uses a compact router, their hybrid 5/16" end mill and three drill bits.

 

[AlexanderA]

Additionally, how would one prove that one's 30 round magazines were "pre-ban?"

During the original AWB, greater-than-10-round magazines were engraved with the date and the notice "restricted -- law enforcement/government use only." Unmarked magazines were presumed to be pre-ban.

Presumably, a new AWB would work the same way. "Restricted" marked magazines with manufacturing dates during the first AWB would be pre-ban in regard to the second AWB.

Of course, this is just an educated guess. We don't know exactly what Congress would do.

During the first AWB, the main effect was that pre-ban magazines went up in price. They were available, but you might have had to pay $60 for a Beretta 92 15-round magazine (for example). Since millions more magazines have been made since the expiration of the first AWB, the price effect of a new AWB won't be as dramatic-- at least not for many years.

(Knowing this, maybe the congresscritters will just ban them all outright. Stupid move. It would be like howling at the moon.)

 

[someguy2800]

Ban whatever you want, what I own is mine.

 

[Walkalong]

Conjecture.

If you are interested in asking about how to machine an 80% lower, I suggest you start an on topic thread focusing on just that, and leave the politics are fear mongering out of it.