92FS: Cocked and Unlocked?

[voilsb]

So I was thinking ... the 92FS is a pretty safe firearm, and I was considering moving to a cocked-and-unlocked carrying posture. Is a 92FS really any less safe than a Glock when carried this way? I wouldn't think so, but figured I'd ask around a little first, to see if people have some good intel.

 

[tbeb]

No pistol is safe to carry cocked and unlocked!

The Beretta 92FS is designed to be carried with a round in the chamber and the hammer decocked.

With a round in the chamber (and your finger off the trigger), the Glock has three automatic safeties and they are: 1. Trigger safety; 2. firing pin safety; and 3. drop safety.

 

[Tamara]

Trigger travel in SA mode on the Beretta is shorter and lighter, the mainspring is storing the full amount of energy needed to bust the cap, and there's nothing to prevent slight side loads on the trigger (such as from a snug holster) bumping the trigger enough to trip the sear.

But, hey, it's a free country and they're your butt cheeks; whatever floats your boat.


(If it was me? Not in a million, billion, gazillion years. )

 

[Ala Dan]

I concur with tbeb, that "NO Pistol Is Safe In The Cocked
And Unlocked Mode"! (The frown represents how persons
would feel about anyone carrying a self-loader in this type
of condition).

The Beretta 92FS is a very safe firearm, provided that one
follows the instructions as issued with each firearm. With
that said, its common knowledge amongest veteran LEO's
that a when a Beretta 92FS is grabbed by a perp; the
officer's survival chances increase if the weapon is toted
as per instructions. The theory is that perps unfamiliar with
a Beretta's operation, would be delayed because of all the
gadget's on this firearm. In reality, the best preventive
measure is "weapon retention"; don't let the bad guy
snatch your firearm in the first place!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[Chugach]

Wouldn't recommend it. An excellent setup for a negligent discharge. Microtravel of the trigger and you've fired a round.

Don't know about you, but I sometimes have enough holster lint to move a trigger that far...

 

[clubsoda22]

here's an idea. Load op a few magazines and go to the range, practice double taps with a DA/SA transtion all day. decock, double tap, decock, doubletap. You'll be supprised how good you'll get.

 

[10-Ring]

I wouldn't...nope, not a good idea at all

 

[voilsb]

clubsoda22 said:
here's an idea. Load op a few magazines and go to the range, practice double taps with a DA/SA transtion all day. decock, double tap, decock, doubletap. You'll be supprised how good you'll get.

This is what prompted me to ask about it. I was at the range today, practicing such, and I noticed about half the time I would pull as if SA three or four times, and never get a round off because it was still in DA mode.

Most of what was posted here, however, was specifically why I currently carry de-cocked. Because I wasn't sure how much travel can happen with that trigger during normal carrying and such. However, knowing it's a relatively safe firearm, I figured I'd ask around.

As for the "no firearm is safe cocked and unlocked," which may be true, that doesn't seem to stop the many many people who carry Glocks (or any other SA or LDA firearm without an external safety) cocked and unlocked. Which, again, was part of why I asked this question.

On a different note, I vaguely remember hearing about a mod for the 92 which disables the de-cocking feature of the saftey, allowing you to carry cocked-and-locked, which may be another option.

 

[C.R.Sam]

I wouldn't

Sam

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

It's interesting to read the various warnings and apply them to other guns:

No pistol is safe to carry cocked and unlocked!

So what does one do with a Springfield XD or Steyr M, which are cocked but have no manual safety?

the mainspring is storing the full amount of energy needed to bust the cap

Like on a 1911, who's safety lever doesn't block that cocked hammer, only the tiny sear that holds it.

I think it's funny that cocking a Beretta, which has a drop safety and a 5 pound SA trigger with some takeup, is an obvious no-no, but putting a 3.5 pound connector in a Glock makes for a sweet carry gun.

If Beretta covered the hammer up and put a longer take up in the SA trigger we'd all be discussing the new "Beretta Good Safe Helper Trigger". Whoopee, it's tactical!

Why is this so obviously dumb, and alot of other stuff we've been sold in the last 15 years the finest developments in firearms?

 

[denfoote]

Here, I thought you were talking about the Taurus PT92, which can be safely carried COCKED AND LOCKED!!

This feature makes the PT92 a much better pistol than the POS Beretta!!!!

 

[timbo]

Don't look at me, I like uncocked and locked. Then again, I don't carry either.

 

[Tecolote]

Apples and Oranges

A better 92FS is unsafe to carry cocked and unlocked. A Glock has three safeties that must be disengaged by pulling the trigger. It's not the same thing as a cocked and unlocked 92FS. I wouldn't carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked even if it does have the grip safety. If you aren't happy with a 92FS look into other models. Don't rely on an unsafe carry mode to make for any shortcomings.

 

[Chuck Perry]

The XD has a grip safety that must be depressed before the pistol will fire. The Steyr M has a manual safety mounted inside the trigger guard in the twelve o clock position.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I got lost with the letters but wasn't the original Beretta 92 a cock and lock firearm? The F series did have the decocking safety but the earlier ones were interchangeable (slide & frame) with the Taurus.

BTW, on the FS series, I concur with everyone in that it should not be carried cocked and lock.

 

[El Tejon]

Have seen condition zero used in skul before. As long as the Golden Rule is observed, barring a bump or grind, one MIGHT be O.K.

IMO, no way, Jose!

 

[Amish]

Tecolote the three Glock safeties are actually just two. The trigger within the trigger is just a marketing label/hype for a part that just works the other two safeties, which are the firing pin block and drop safety which always doesn't work. Putting a so called safety on the trigger is like putting Bin Laden inside the White House. All guns need to have the trigger pulled to fire. If you haven't noticed SIG's, Beretta's, HK's, and other guns have those basic safeties. Glock has no special external safety features. Actually Glocks are less safer since they have a light DA pull, which isn't much different from a slightly heavy SA pull. Also Glocks will fire slightly out of battery.

Some people here need to learn how other guns besides Glock work. A cocked Beretta or a SIG will only fire if the trigger is pulled AND if it's pulled all the way, which is impossible to do while in a holster. The firing pin is blocked until the trigger is pulled in DA and SA pull. If the hammer is accidently bumped and disengages from the sear, it will fall to the half cocked position. A Beretta will NOT accidently discharge. Carrying a Glock with round in the chamber is no safer than carrying a cocked Beretta or SIG around. Actually a cocked and locked HK USP is safer than both. I would carry my Beretta Elite II cocked anytime. How many stories of accidental discharges have you hear about with Glocks? How many have you heard about with the M9 or LE Beretta's or SIG's or HK's?

 

[Chugach]

A cocked Beretta or a SIG will only fire if the trigger is pulled AND if it's pulled all the way, which is impossible to do while in a holster.

I respectfully disagree. Guess it depends on your definition of "while in a holster". If your pistol has been inserted safely and it is at rest, there is minimal risk of discharge if the holster is of sound construction. But how does the pistol get into the holster? Have you ever had a holster mouth collapse or a piece of fabric from your cover garment intrude into your pistol's trigger guard?

For that reason, I always rest my thumb on my pistol's or revolver's external hammer as I holster. Back of hammer if piece is "decocked", overlapping the front of the hammer lightly if "cocked-and-locked". That way, I can sense even small hammer movement rearwards or forwards and take corrective action.

I don't trust half-cock catches. And for those handguns with no external hammer, I'm exceedingly careful of what I do when I holster.

 

[Dave T]

When you carry a Glock with a round chambered it is not "cocked". The firing pin is partially cocked but does not have enough inertia from that position to set off a primer - given that the other two safeties would allow it to go forward, which they won't. You people are compairing apples and oranges.

As for all the "accidental discharges" with Glocks, every single one involves somebody pulling the trigger, whether they admit it or not. Combat Tupperware won't fire otherwise!

 

[Tecolote]

The Glock safety isn't a marketing ploy. You can't fire a properly working Glock without fulling depressing the small latch built within the trigger. It's one thing not to like Glocks but another to call a safety a "marketing ploy."

 

[WonderNine]

True, the B92 can't fire if the sear breaks because of the firing pin safety. The trigger must be pulled all the way to the rear for it to go off. The B92 is one of the safety pistols out there. My preMKII Hi-Power can fire if the sear breaks though.

 

[voilsb]

As for all the "accidental discharges" with Glocks, every single one involves somebody pulling the trigger, whether they admit it or not.

That's another way of phrasing it. The Beretta has a firing pin safety which is released when you make a DA pull, but I'm not sure if it's till active for an SA pull.

So, can a Beretta 92FS be fired without pulling the trigger? Is the trigger-activated firing pin safety still active in a SA pull?

Edited to add: I swear I posted this before, but I must have hit 'preview' and for some reason thought I'd posted it. Oops!

 

[Cthulhu]

To answer the original question: Is a 92FS really any less safe than a Glock when carried this way?

Yes.

As others have posted, the Glock is only partially cocked when it is carried, and has safeties that require that the trigger being squarely and fully depressed. Dave T's post sums it up well.

Most defensive instructors and schools advocate a trigger pull of 4-5 pounds as a minimum. and I haven't seen any that recommend the Glock 3.5lb connector for carry use, much less tout it as the ideal carry setup.

Carrying a 92FS condition zero is less safe. The hammer is fully cocked, and there is nothing to prevent discharge from an errant side loading from holster body, retention strap, etc.

How many stories of accidental discharges have you hear about with Glocks? How many have you heard about with the M9 or LE Beretta's or SIG's or HK's?

Accidental discharges happen in all these weapons, and are caused by defective operation of the cop's fingers, not any safety mechanism or lack thereof. Glocks seem to have more discharges due to officers failing to clear their weapon properly before attempting to strip/function check it. This is a training issue more than a design issue. Most LE are not shooting enthusiasts, and know only what training has covered. Glocks are the most commonly issued firearms in US LE service, so the fact that they have more "stories" about NDs would not be that shocking.

Could a 92, with the proper training and leather, be carried safely this way? Sure. So could a condition zero Sig, Browning, HK, or 1911. Even in the (extremely rare) instance of a outright sear breakage, firing pin blocks or half cock notches or a combination of the two would most likely prevent a discharge. That doesn't make it a good idea. Reholstering quickly would be very touchy, or slower than the conventional methods.

If you have trouble with managing the trigger in an SA/DA pistol, rather than carrying the weapon in a manner which is inherently less safe than the than TDA or C&L, either practice it until it is no longer an issue, or choose a different weapon that can use a consistent pull for every shot. Whether that is a CZ/BHP/HKUSP/1911 carried C&L, a "safe action" type such as the Glock, XD or (shudder) a DAO, such as Beretta 92G, H&K V5, P2000, is up to you.

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Since the Beretta and Glock are both safe against internal failures and drops, due to the firing pin safety, but the Glock, XD or M are the only safe choice if the 5 lbs. mode, where does that leave the Para LDA?

Here's a gun that works like a Glock, except there is no trigger safety to insure that the gun will fire if and only if "the trigger [is] squarely and fully depressed".


If carrying a light triggered gun requires some sort of trigger or grip safety for holstering, where does that leave the LDA, Daewoo, Kahr, LEM, P99 QA, Sig K, Sigma and every other similar design (more on the way!) that has a light, unblocked trigger?

 

[Amish]

Once again, with the hammer cocked back on a Beretta, the firing pin block is in place and will only disengage if the slack of the SA is taken up and the trigger pulled all the way. Should the hammer disengage from the sear by blunt force, it will fall to the half cocked position. It is impossible to have an accidental discharge with a cocked Beretta. You can drop kick it cocked and it will not fire. The trigger has to pulled, so how is it less safe than a Glock, which when loaded is in a half cocked position and the pull is only slightly heavier than the SA pull on a Beretta?

How is a Glock immune to any abnormal holstering. Actually unless you wear a holster made of jelly, there is no chance in hell a cocked Beretta will fire while holstered. People who say otherwise have not owned a Beretta or know how a gun other than a Glock works. Don't believe me, I will bet anyone here $1000 plus their Glock if they loose to demostrate a cocked and holstered Beretta accidently firing or a cocked Beretta accidently firing while being holstered or taken out and i'm not taking about human error like putting your finger on the trigger, which will also discharge a Glock.

Just as I side note, I have a Glock 17 so I know how they work.