cool45auto
Member
I put a D model spacer in my Vertec so if I want I can carry it cocked with the safety on for a SA first shot after thumbing off the safety.
92FS: Cocked and Unlocked?
- Thread starter voilsb
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I put a D model spacer in my Vertec so if I want I can carry it cocked with the safety on for a SA first shot after thumbing off the safety.
WonderNine
member
If the sear breaks it will probably fall all the way. But even if that is the case the firing pin safety will prevent it from falling. And if a B92 is truly converted to cocked and locked, you won't be able to pull the trigger back even by accident if the safety is on. That's what we're talking about here right? True c&l?
Glock: Partially cocked.
Beretta: Fully cocked.
Glock: Firing pin safety.
Beretta Firing pin safety.
Glock: 5.5lb trigger
Beretta 4 to 6lb trigger
Glock: 0.4" trigger travel.
Beretta: 0.4" trigger travel.
Glock Trigger guard width minus trigger blade width: 0.22"
Beretta Trigger guard width minus trigger blade width: 0.11"
Glock: Safety Ramp holds striker from dropping into firing pin block.
Beretta: Half cock notch prevents hammer from dropping.
Glock: Trigger safety
Beretta: No trigger safety.
Glock trigger: Requires significant pull effort to start trigger moving.
Beretta trigger: Moves very easily through takeup.
So what does that mean?
The Glock isn't fully cocked. That means that if ALL the safeties and the sears on both guns fail, the Glock won't fire, the Beretta will. That sounds pretty paranoid, but there are some more likely scenarios where this difference could be an issue.
The Glock trigger safety prevents AD/NDs when only the side of the trigger is snagged. The trigger safety design also makes it unlikely that objects making initial light contact will fire trigger. The initial light contact will cause the object to slide up the trigger safety slope to the top part of the trigger where the safety can't be disengaged. A lot of people overlook the fact that the trigger safety doesn't cover the WHOLE trigger blade, only the bottom portion. Pressure at the top of the trigger (where a snag would likely ride up to and stop) can't fire the gun.
The Glock trigger guard is about two tenths of an inch wider (0.6") than the Beretta trigger guard (0.44") although the Glock trigger blade is only a hair wider than the Beretta trigger blade. That means that the Glock trigger guard overhangs the trigger blade by over a tenth of an inch on each side. The Beretta trigger guard provides only half that amount of overhang/protection on each side.
The Glock trigger pull means that it won't start moving until a decent amount of pressure is applies. The Beretta trigger moves very easily until the takeup is eliminated. That makes it more likely that something snagging the trigger on the Glock will slip off before firing the pistol. Something snagging the Beretta trigger won't meet much resistance until the last instant which will probably make it more likely to fire the pistol.
What it really comes down to is that the Glock was DESIGNED to be carried in the (chamber loaded/partially cocked/ready to fire with a trigger pull) mode. The designers made extra efforts to insure that it was as safe as possible. Some of the important design features that contribute to this, like the wider trigger guard and the trigger safety slope/trigger safety placement on the trigger aren't immediately apparent but are there when you need them.
Beretta: Fully cocked.
Glock: Firing pin safety.
Beretta Firing pin safety.
Glock: 5.5lb trigger
Beretta 4 to 6lb trigger
Glock: 0.4" trigger travel.
Beretta: 0.4" trigger travel.
Glock Trigger guard width minus trigger blade width: 0.22"
Beretta Trigger guard width minus trigger blade width: 0.11"
Glock: Safety Ramp holds striker from dropping into firing pin block.
Beretta: Half cock notch prevents hammer from dropping.
Glock: Trigger safety
Beretta: No trigger safety.
Glock trigger: Requires significant pull effort to start trigger moving.
Beretta trigger: Moves very easily through takeup.
So what does that mean?
The Glock isn't fully cocked. That means that if ALL the safeties and the sears on both guns fail, the Glock won't fire, the Beretta will. That sounds pretty paranoid, but there are some more likely scenarios where this difference could be an issue.
The Glock trigger safety prevents AD/NDs when only the side of the trigger is snagged. The trigger safety design also makes it unlikely that objects making initial light contact will fire trigger. The initial light contact will cause the object to slide up the trigger safety slope to the top part of the trigger where the safety can't be disengaged. A lot of people overlook the fact that the trigger safety doesn't cover the WHOLE trigger blade, only the bottom portion. Pressure at the top of the trigger (where a snag would likely ride up to and stop) can't fire the gun.
The Glock trigger guard is about two tenths of an inch wider (0.6") than the Beretta trigger guard (0.44") although the Glock trigger blade is only a hair wider than the Beretta trigger blade. That means that the Glock trigger guard overhangs the trigger blade by over a tenth of an inch on each side. The Beretta trigger guard provides only half that amount of overhang/protection on each side.
The Glock trigger pull means that it won't start moving until a decent amount of pressure is applies. The Beretta trigger moves very easily until the takeup is eliminated. That makes it more likely that something snagging the trigger on the Glock will slip off before firing the pistol. Something snagging the Beretta trigger won't meet much resistance until the last instant which will probably make it more likely to fire the pistol.
What it really comes down to is that the Glock was DESIGNED to be carried in the (chamber loaded/partially cocked/ready to fire with a trigger pull) mode. The designers made extra efforts to insure that it was as safe as possible. Some of the important design features that contribute to this, like the wider trigger guard and the trigger safety slope/trigger safety placement on the trigger aren't immediately apparent but are there when you need them.
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bountyhunter
member
It sure is active for SA pull, much to the disdain of anybody who would like to have one with a short, crisp SA pull. The FP block requires considerable trigger pre-travel in SA to raise the block out of the way before the gun can fire. Long SA pull is mandatory for the Beretta design.
SelfProclaimedExpert
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How did this become a Beretta vs. Glock only comparison?
Go back to John's list and substitute a couple other popular guns and see how they fall out on the safety comparison.
Go back to John's list and substitute a couple other popular guns and see how they fall out on the safety comparison.
From the initial post.
I was interested to find as I compiled the information for the above list that there were more similarities than differences.
Still, the differences are telling.
Here's one reasonably likely scenario. The Beretta has a very hard hammer strike. One of the hardest in industry, IMO. I've heard of Beretta users who disassembled their slides to find that their firing pins were broken even though they had been experiencing no misfires. The high hammer energy was transferring through the back part of the broken pin to the front part with enough force to fire the cartridge reliably.
Ok, let's take someone in that situation. A broken firing pin, but no malfunctions yet, due to the extra hard hammer strike of the Beretta.
Let's say that person starts carrying cocked and unlocked. A hard bump against the hammer breaks the sear allowing the hammer to fall. Note that if the sear is actually broken, there is nothing to catch the half-cock notch. The firing pin safety is in place, but since the forward part of the firing pin is broken off, the strike of the hammer transfers through the part of the pin locked by the firing pin safety to the forward part that is free to move. Just like one of those little swinging ball desk games. So, we have a discharge in a gun that appeared to be functioning normally up until the sear was broken.
Now, is that a highly likely event? No, but it's not pathologically paranoid, either. What it comes down to is that a gun that isn't cocked (doesn't have enough tension on the main spring to fire the gun) is going to be safer than one that is.
It seems to be accepted that you need at least a treble safety to allow a cocked situation to be safe. The 1911 pistols use a half-cock notch, a grip safety and a manual safety for example. The Beretta 92 has only two active safeties when cocked. The firing pin block and the half-cock notch.
The Glock, on the other hand has a treble safety (firing pin block, a trigger safety, and an internal safety ramp which blocks the striker) even though the gun's NOT cocked.
SelfProclaimedExpert
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So how do you feel about cocked and locked Series 70 1911s? Only one failure to fire as in your above scenerio.
Glock: Trigger safety
Beretta: No trigger safety.
This is a meaningless distinction.
If you pull the trigger of a glock, it goes boom. If you pull the trigger of a Beretta, it goes boom.
The only difference you failed to mention is that if you pull the trigger of a Beretta with the safety on, it don't go boom. If you pull the trigger of a Glock it goes boom no matter what. If you snag your (as expressed here) defective holster with corners sticking out and stuff, and your glock goes off. Your Beretta doesn't.
Beretta wins this little safety issue.
Beretta: No trigger safety.
This is a meaningless distinction.
If you pull the trigger of a glock, it goes boom. If you pull the trigger of a Beretta, it goes boom.
The only difference you failed to mention is that if you pull the trigger of a Beretta with the safety on, it don't go boom. If you pull the trigger of a Glock it goes boom no matter what. If you snag your (as expressed here) defective holster with corners sticking out and stuff, and your glock goes off. Your Beretta doesn't.
Beretta wins this little safety issue.
voilsb
Member
It wasn't meant to be. It was just the first thing that came to mind when I wrote it. I've since learned quite a bit, and tried to change the direction of the discussion to the safety of the same pistol modified to function in a cocked-and-locked (for instance, how Cool9mm had mentioend) manner.
And yes, I very much appreciate the wealth of information and discussion I've found here. I hope it continues, too.
SelfProclaimedExpert
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It was also my impression that the Glock was a "such as...", but there was no point arguing it.
Voilsb, I hope you now feel that carrying like that is dumb. However, maybe you're wondering what else is dumb, too.
Voilsb, I hope you now feel that carrying like that is dumb. However, maybe you're wondering what else is dumb, too.
I have a Beretta 92FS and a couple of Glocks. There is no way I would carry my 92FS without the safety engaged. There is more surface area on the Beretta's trigger. The more surface area, the greater the chance of pulling the trigger. With the Glock, you must have your finger "squarely" placed on the trigger inside the trigger in order for it to fire. With the Beretta, you can fire the gun with an indirect trigger strike. In addition, an indirect trigger strike is much easier with the Beretta, because the trigger guard is not much wider than the trigger it protects. It definitely adds to the gun's looks, but doesn't protect the trigger that much. The Glock's trigger guard is a lot wider and more protective of the trigger; you still have to depress the smaller trigger inside the main trigger. I must say that I am a little leary of holstering the Glock; I now prefer the Springfield XD system with the grip safety.
voilsb
Member
Yeah, that's basically why I was asking about CnL mods.
Currently, I carry chambered, uncocked, safety off (because of the monsterous DA pull). I'm thinking (if it's reasonably safe) to move to CnL.
Of course, when I have a bit more spare money, I'll get a compact 1911 and maybe an XD, too. Then I won't have to worry about this discussion.
But it's cool learning about some of the other things, too. For instance, this is the first thread I've seen where the Glock trigger-safety actually sounds like it does something useful. Thanks for the G2!
SelfProclaimedExpert
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After all this, you want to carry a cocked gun with no firing pin safety and a safety that blocks the sear, not the hammer?
I guess safety is in the mind of the beholder.
Absolutely irrelevant. You can't put the safety on with the gun cocked. The safety will decock the gun.
The question wasn't "Which is safer, a loaded Glock or a loaded Beretta with the safety on" The question was "Which is safer, a loaded Glock, or a Beretta with the hammer cocked."
Come on folks, let's not allow our anti-Glock sentiments to drag us off topic.
Are you saying the grip safety only blocks the sear? (Yeah, I guess that's right since they made a big deal of the S&W 1911 having a firing pin block on the grip safety.)
Well, I don't own any 1911 pistols so the question hasn't ever come up (for me, at least.)
I think that's a bit extreme. I don't mind carrying it loaded with the safety off (no other choice for my 92G), but IMO the long stiff DA pull substitutes for a safety. Otherwise everyone would be up in arms about revolvers being unsafe...
For what it's worth, I own both Berettas and Glocks. I'm not at all anti-Beretta. In fact, I have a real soft spot for the Beretta 92 as it was my first semi-auto pistol, and only my second firearm.
IMO, this thread isn't about which one is better, it's about which one is safer UNDER ONE VERY SPECIFIC SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES. I think it's kind of sad that some people are so rabidly "My gun is best--every other gun licks dirt" that they can't even discuss relevant issues without making it into a major urination olympiad.
voilsb
Member
Actually, as the author of the thread, I have to take contest with this. The thread wasn't really about which one was safer. As mentioned before, the use of Glock in the original post was simply because it was the first firearm of its type to come to mind, and it was an example.
The thread was not about which was better or which was safer. It was about how safe the Beretta 92 is while cocked and unlocked, and later moved to how safe a modified Beretta 92 is while cocked and locked.
Granted, threads tend to take a direction of their own after a few people get ahold of them, but that's the general intent of the thread.
The general idea I've gotten from the thread, though, is that the Beretta 92 is reasonably safe while uncocked with the manual safety disengaged, or cocked with the manual safety engaged (not an option with a stock Beretta 92), but not prudently safe cocked with the safety disengaged.
XavierBreath
Member
Gentlemen, I have tried to read this thread and I have to say my head hurts. Who would carry a Beretta 92FS cocked and unlocked?
I'm going to go relax and shoot my 1911's.
mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter
I'm going to go relax and shoot my 1911's.
mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter mutter
The Glock trigger safety prevents AD/NDs when only the side of the trigger is snagged. The trigger safety design also makes it unlikely that objects making initial light contact will fire trigger
END
The trigger safety is actually a drop safety that keeps the pistol from being fired when its dromed and the rear of the slide hits the ground. The safety keeps the weight of the trigger from allowing the gun to fire. I did not know this until I became a Glock Armorer.
Pat
END
The trigger safety is actually a drop safety that keeps the pistol from being fired when its dromed and the rear of the slide hits the ground. The safety keeps the weight of the trigger from allowing the gun to fire. I did not know this until I became a Glock Armorer.
Pat
chaim
Member
I don't think you can find very many people who would suggest carrying an DA/SA (or SA only) pistol cocked and unlocked. Those few who would aren't going to be the one carrying your gun that way and putting themselves at both physical risk and risk of legal liability. I'd be willing to bet that none of those here who are saying that it might be ok would carry this way themselves.
In answer to the original question I'll simply reiterate some suggestions others have already made. If you really like the Beretta design you might want to consider relagating it to the range and getting a Taurus PT92 for carry. It is reliable, it has the Beretta's basic design and style (though the fit and finish isn't supposed to be quite as good), it is supposed to be accurate and it has a safety that allows cocked and locked if that is an option you want (and if you ever get used to the DA to SA transition you can carry it decocked or decocked and on safe). The other safe option if you can't get used to the DA/SA transition is to get an SA gun (or the DA/SA CZ with a SA style safety) and carry cocked and locked or get a DAO and carry with or without the external safety. If you don't like any of those options then you may wish to look around for a gunsmith who might convert your Beretta into an SA pistol.
In answer to the original question I'll simply reiterate some suggestions others have already made. If you really like the Beretta design you might want to consider relagating it to the range and getting a Taurus PT92 for carry. It is reliable, it has the Beretta's basic design and style (though the fit and finish isn't supposed to be quite as good), it is supposed to be accurate and it has a safety that allows cocked and locked if that is an option you want (and if you ever get used to the DA to SA transition you can carry it decocked or decocked and on safe). The other safe option if you can't get used to the DA/SA transition is to get an SA gun (or the DA/SA CZ with a SA style safety) and carry cocked and locked or get a DAO and carry with or without the external safety. If you don't like any of those options then you may wish to look around for a gunsmith who might convert your Beretta into an SA pistol.
cool45auto
Member
Come on, Dr Jones, its not any different then having to thumb off the safety on a 1911.
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