9mm, 40 cal, or 10mm?

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A few years ago, I did the same research you are doing now. Used to live next door to a Maryland State Trooper, who hated his "wonder nine." He really didn't like to depend on the 9mm. That kind of jaded my perspective going in. I read up on the history of the .40S&W and decided that caliber made intellectual sense ... more powerful than the 9mm and, in effect, the equivalent of a light-loaded 10mm (which is exactly what it is). I bought a S&W 4013 that I still really like. Years later, my wife used that same 4013 in a two-day handgun course. She didn't have much history with handguns, and though she found the recoil fairly snappy, she handled it just fine. Fit of the gun makes a big difference. I seem to shoot the 4013 and a Glock 23 about the same. My wife hates the Glock.

I'm a fan of deciding on the cartridge you want, and then finding the launcher for it. For defense, I prefer the .40. There are lots of different guns in that caliber, and I'll bet you can find one that you like and that you can shoot more easily than others.
 
The ideal bullet is one that dumps ALL of its energy into the target. A bullet that goes THROUGH the target is wasting energy.

No, as I've already stated, you don't have to kill very many living things before you realize that energy can be grossly over rated. It is important in that it makes bullets expand, which destroys tissue, but I am convinced that in many cases, the target cares far less about energy figures than the person pulling the trigger. I've seen animals shot with high powered rifles that deliver far more energy into the target than any handgun. At rifle velocities, even shock can damage or destroy vital organs, something handguns can't claim, at least to near the extent. But you shoot enough things and you learn that unless you destroy the CNS, you're only hope is to make the target bleed out, and this is best accomplished by both destroying large blood bearing vessels and organs, and leaving a gaping exit wound. Two holes bleed better than one. An exit wound is of far more use than a little bit of energy deposited in a wall or tree behind the target. Energy is not wasted when a bullet exits.
 
I think Soybomb has a good point - I don't have a 9mm (not yet anyway!) but I agree that its bad rep is based on older less effiecient ammo AND on shooters who did not hit their target!

I think these stories of failure of the 9 to kill anything bigger than a gnat are from the chest thumping, knuckle draggin' gun store experts, myself. I know of no such "documentation". I'm sure there are failures, just as I'm sure there are failures for the .40 and the .45. But, the nine is widely used in law enforcement and military application, it's a service caliber, and it puts up some big numbers compared to such "proven" rounds as the .38 Special or even the .357 magnum when fired out of a 2" gun. It's no .32, put it that way. I carry it most every day of the year and if I had to use it, I don't think the BG is going to laugh at a center mass hit packin' 410 ft lbs. :rolleyes: I don't use ball for self defense.
 
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9mm is a pretty good caliber for a first gun.

Most FMJ ammo is cheap and loaded somewhat lightly so it's easy to practice with. Then you can get the hot +P and +P+ loads for self defense. DoubleTap makes a great 124grain load. 1310fps / 473ft.lbs from a 4.5" barrel. That's only about 70-80fps slower than most commercial 357sig loads.
 
I said both cavity trauma AND energy dump are important. the only cavity trauma guaranteed to cease all motor activity immediately is a hit severing the spine, or entering the brain. If your attacker doesn't stop immediately from inflicted cavity trauma for any number of reasons, only the thump from (hopefully repeated) hits will keep him away from you. This why we measure muzzle energy along with velocity and diameter.
 
No, as I've already stated, you don't have to kill very many living things before you realize that energy can be grossly over rated. It is important in that it makes bullets expand, which destroys tissue, but I am convinced that in many cases, the target cares far less about energy figures than the person pulling the trigger. I've seen animals shot with high powered rifles that deliver far more energy into the target than any handgun. At rifle velocities, even shock can damage or destroy vital organs, something handguns can't claim, at least to near the extent. But you shoot enough things and you learn that unless you destroy the CNS, you're only hope is to make the target bleed out, and this is best accomplished by both destroying large blood bearing vessels and organs, and leaving a gaping exit wound. Two holes bleed better than one. An exit wound is of far more use than a little bit of energy deposited in a wall or tree behind the target. Energy is not wasted when a bullet exits.

I have shot a LOT of deer with various calibers. I have made lung shots, nothing, but lung, and had the animal fold and fall on the spot, dead before he hit the ground. I've only had one deer go very far. he was hit solid with a 117 grain Hornady XTP, the bullet failed to expand, and had total penetration. The entry was through the left shoulder and the exit was about the second to last rib on the right side. I had to skin the animal to find the exit hole. That deer went about 80 yards before it dropped and began to die. I started using 100 grain game king bullets after that, never fail to expand.

So, yes, I am convinced the pressure wave of a rifle CAN destroy nerves with adequate energy dump. Expansion is necessary for this. I've seen lung shots destroy completely the lungs when using a 7 mag and a 150 grain game king at 3150 fps. I would reckon that at handgun velocities this is not nearly so reliable, but my bet is if you're near the nerve, you don't necessarily have to HIT it to cause trauma from the pressure wave. I've shot two deer with the .357 mag, one was a lung shot at 80 yards behind the shoulder. The deer jumps and made it about 20 yards before falling. That deer had a 3-4" area around the path of the bullet where the lung tissue was destroyed. I can only figure it was pressure wave damage as I was shooting a hard cast 158 grain SWC. So, you are NOT going to get the massive damage that a rifle does, of course. But, I believe Doctor Courtney has stated that the pressure wave magnitude is a linear function of energy, nothing magical about higher energies other than there's just more of it. But, of course, a handgun making 400 ft lbs is never going to match a rifle making 3300 ft lbs. This just shows ME that no handgun is a lightening bolt killer. Any handgun takes proper shot placement. I want expansion and yes, I want complete penetration to produce two holes. I want as much energy as I can carry in the package I'm totin' 'cause more is better. But, the .45 ACP is NOT significantly more deadly than the 9mm, neither is really adequate to the task. Neither is a 7mm remington magnum out of a 26 inch barrel.

My absolute minimum caliber is .380. I don't consider the .32 adequate since I can get a similar size gun in a .380. The P3AT is no harder to conceal than any .32ACP I've laid eyes on. I don't have a P3AT, probably need to add one to my selection of PDWs. I do have a .380 that is pretty compact, though, and 100 percent functional, it's just not as tiny as the P3AT. I can normally carry a 9mm sub-compact in a pocket, though and that's something I can't do with a .45.

IOW, there is more to caliber selection than terminal ballistics, or choice of caliber for a new shooter. I think the 9 is EXCELLENT to start out with mainly because of the cost of ammo and the fact that the new shooter will shoot more. It'll serve well as a personal protection caliber and there are HUGE numbers of quality firearms out there to choose from.

edit.....I just thought of another deer I shot that went probably a hundred yards with good expansion. He was hit with a 7.62x39. It was not a real good hit, though, odd angle, so I can't completely condemn the caliber. But, as that bullet (135 grain Sierra pro hunter) is no longer made, I quit hunting with it. Besides, I prefer my M7 Remington in .308, amazing little rifle.
 
Yeah I am not knocking expansion. But the only animal this family has ever lost was an elk where the bullet expanded too much and didn't penetrate. You recovered your deer where the XTP didn't expand, because a small hole through both lungs beats a large hole that stops just inside the rib cage, every time. My point was that, well I shot a doe a couple years back with a 160 gr Nosler Partition over a compressed charge of H870 in my 7mm Rem Mag at a distance of maybe 30 feet. The bullet lost its entire nose section. Only the rear core exitted. We found jacket fragments as far up as the back strap, the lungs were completely destroyed, and the heart was blown out of its protective membrane and severed from the assending aorta. The doe still ran a good 40 or 50 feet before collapsing. It wasn't nearly as impressed with the foot pounds of energy it had just absorbed or the damage that tiny peice of metal had just done to its chest cavity as I was. I've seen other animals take hits from high powered rifles with similar reactions. So while energy causes bullets to expand, there is nothing mythical about it. I have learned that shot placement and adequate penetration, hopefully with an exit wound, are two things that can ensure you get to fill your tag. Expansion and hydrostatic shock are nice when they happen, but not to be counted on. That is my $.02.
 
Oops, gotta make a correction, it was a hornady interlock bullet that failed to expand. Slip there.

I have only had one whitetail where a bullet did not exit, was a doe. The bullet busted both shoulders and wound up just under the skin on the off side. She dropped instantly due (I believe) to damage a major artery (no anatomist, but I did take comparitive anatomy and I believe it was a carotid as it was heading into the neck). She had no exit wound. I don't believe an exit wound is that necessary. It's a loss of blood pressure whether it bleeds internally or externally.

One thing, too, an elk is a lot bigger animal than a human or a whitetail deer. I've never shot an elk, only whitetail, hogs, and mule deer for big game. I'd prefer a bullet penetrate all the way through AND with complete expansion.

Archers have to be good game trackers. They have quite heavy projectiles at quite slow velocities that cut their way through an animal for complete penetration, yet, how often does an arrow knock a deer down in its tracks? Deer drop to my rifles in their tracks much more often than not. What's the difference here, energy transfer maybe? You hit a deer in the boiler room with an arrow, you'd better be prepared for a long hike.

Anyway, back to the topic, I still say a 9mm is a fine caliber and great for a beginner that doesn't reload.
 
9mm vs 40S&W vs 10mm

If I remember an article from years ago the author made this statement "the 9mm parabellum has killed more people than any other cartridge" seeing that it was the primary cartridge in europe in two world wars I'll give hm the benifit.
Personaly I have fired and owned all 3 and I give the nod to the 9mm for reasons previously stated cheap ammo etc.
I've owned 2 10mm's a glock and a delta elite and frankly I'd rather fire full house 44 mag loads out of a four inch barrel.
The Delta had a double recoil spring that broke and was replaced
with a 26 lb spring,pulling the slide back was like loading a bear trap. My 9mm and 40S&W are both Berettas mod 92 and 96 I can shoot both reasoably well recoil in both seem to be equal.
There is one thing that I'm not sure that was mentioned here European 9mm is loaded to a higher preasure than US and IMHO is closer to 357 mag and as I recall it's loaded by Hertenberger of Austria most of the pistol manufacturers advise against its use in there pistols. AFAIK Glock,Ruger do not warn against its use
In the end is this, shoot what you can shoot accurately and comfortably for it YOU who are making the final decsion
 
I just sold 2 Glock 19's and a SA 1911A1 and bought a Glock 23 in .40s&w. I figured why should I have to spend extra for +P+ ammo for it to be "effective" enough as a .40s&w is straight up off the shelf. Sure ammo is slightly more expensive, but I don't have to +P+ it, it already comes that way.
 
I don't spend any extra for my +P stuff, I just use a little more Unique behind that Hornady XTP bullet. ;) My bonus is an 11 round service caliber gun that carries in a pocket all day and I barely notice I even have it. That's a good thing far as I'm concerned. The easier the gun is to carry, the less I'll even think about leaving it at home.

This morning I woke up in a revolver mood, lubed and stuck the 9 away and grabbed my Taurus M85UL in .38 special for the day. :D I ain't really a caliber nazi. I have .380 as my absolute minimum. I have never owned, nor will I likely ever see a reason to own a .32 and I rarely have a need to carry my little .380. But, I like this revolver. It's accurate, it is powerful enough (yeah, I carry +P 158 grain loads in it), and it is a rugged little stainless/alloy gun that's great fun to shoot and I don't have to chase down the friggin' brass at the range.:D Yeah, capacity is lacking. Every weapon I have has its goods and its bads. I just like revolvers and get in the mood now and then. I grew up in the revolver era, probably has something to do with it.

It don't sound like anyone on this thread is too ill armed for social encounters. I sometimes get the feeling in these caliber discussions that we are being awful picky. After all, how much history does the .40 have in law enforcement compared to the .38 special? :D The good ol' FBI load is enough for me today. Maybe I'll feel under-gunned tomorrow morning....:banghead: ROFLMAO!
 
To MTMilitiaman

Sorry it took so long to reply. I have had a very busy week at work. Look's like we never quite agree, but are closer than you would think. All stopping power stats are the same. They are based on one shot stops for different brands and weights of ammo for each caliber. I have to agree I sometimes think the 10mm is behind the .40 and .45 because there is not a lot of stats to work with. It is not a popular LE round, which is how these stats are compiled. I will say one thing though humans are not deer, elk etc. So I would tend too look at these stats with at least some reliability. I do not have a death grip on such, but you seem to want to defend the 10mm like a defense lawyer with no other cases to work and has fallen in love with his client. I have nothing against the 10mm. Just do not find it practical in many ways that I have explained previously. After all the .40 is just a shorter 10mm cartridge.

We have turned this poor guys thread into a caliber war. But that is what
makes this sight fun!

Take Care and Have a good weekend!

P.S.
I am going to the range on Saturday. I like go every week its my week to shoot the .40's but I will rent the 10mm to see if I like it.
 
No harm, no foul. I just don't understand how you can be a fan of the .357 Magnum and not at least appreciate having similar ballistics in an auto. The 10mm Auto is ballistically identical to the .357 Magnum with similar barrel lengths, and also shares much of the .357's versitility. You can find .40 loads all the way up to the full-power 750+ foot pound loads, and swap out barrels in some models for .357 SIG, .40 S&W, and 9x23. At least in Glock's case, the standard magazines and recoil springs can even be used. There is a lot to appreciate in the 10mm Auto. If you don't like the recoil of the higher end loads, find FBI-Lite loads and enjoy having .40 S&W ballistics with less recoil. Or you can find a happy medium with Hornady or Winchester factory loads. The 175 gr Silvertip has a very good reputation among 10mm enthusiasts.

People say the 10mm isn't popular because of its recoil, but I don't buy that for a second. The .357 Magnum has a very good following with similar ballistics and recoil. Heck, you don't find scadium framed 10mms, so if anything the 10mm's reputation for recoil should be less than that of the .357. The 10mm's lack of popularity can only be attributed to things like lack of endorsement or military history. Which is a shame cause it deserves more popularity than it has.

I apologize if I came across as rude, or hostile. I am just tired of the same rumors and stuff being flung about my pet cartridge. Like it or don't like it, but don't spread these lies and exaggerations about it. That is all I ask.
 
TO MTMilitiaman

Actually I only have the handle .357 Magnum because that was my carry piece for so long. [almost 8 years of undercover work] I will probably never go back to using them again. Basically I do not consider the .357 a great defensive weapon because of the sound. They are extemely loud and do not do much for your hearing. The recoil in shorter, lighter guns can be a problem for target reaquisition. The best one I have owned so far was a Smith-Wesson model 627. It had a 5inch barrel and 8 shot cylinder. I liked the weight, at 44 oz the recoil for full power loads was not a factor. I traded it and thought the wife was gonna shoot me. She really liked that gun! Oh well she is stuck on revolvers. I will get her a less expensive one for Christmas. I really have become a semi-auto fan in just 4 short months. It has not taken long to become a pretty accurate shooter, even with very quick follow-up shots. I love the capacity of auto-loaders. I really do not have a pet caliber at the moment. I really like the .45 I have become just a tad more accurate with it than the .40 I will try the 10mm Saturday. I think the 175 gr silvertip is a great load for the 10mm the ballistics are impressive.

No offense taken--Have a good one-All the best to you and your family.
 
Actually, kinetic energy transference is a big part of how weapons kill. The ideal bullet is one that dumps ALL of its energy into the target. A bullet that goes THROUGH the target is wasting energy. A good hollow point is one that makes a bigger wound channel AND transfers all or most of the bullet's enery to the target.

I thought we had quashed this. "Energy Transfer", "energy dump", all BS.
There is a whole lot of energy transferred into a person who is hit by a car at 15 MPH (enough to throw them back many feet), yet this is usually a survivable scenario. Why? Because their vital organs and circulatory system remained in-tact. Energy does not kill. Gaping wounds that bleed and organs that are destroyed kill. Energy only factors in because it amounts to driving a biger bullet deeper, thus causing more trauma. A bullet that exits has wasted nothing. Exit wounds are usually larger (never smaller) than entrance wounds, hence more opportunity for blood to leave the body.

CNS shots are the only ones that negate blood loss and organ damage as factors in stopping. CNS shots are all but impossible to guarantee and cannot be relied on. (head shots do not guarantee incapacitating damage)

If you want to put someone down, you want big hole all the way through.

The only thing that effects a stop or kill is DAMAGE!

An MP-5 shoots with a different engineering approach than an automatic pistol. (If one hit is a good thing, 15 hits is a GREAT thing.) A .22 is pretty effective too when you are shooting 15 of them per second.

More holes=more damage. Plays right into the logic.

I did say the .40 has better stopping power then the 10mm. I did not however say the .40 has better ballistics. The 10mm does have better ballistics

:confused:

Stopping power is a myth, but wounding potential is not and the 10mm simply has more than the .40. The extra horsepower allows you to drive a heavier bullet deeper when expanded to the same diameter. See above for what this means.
 
Stopping power is a myth, but wounding potential is not and the 10mm simply has more than the .40. The extra horsepower allows you to drive a heavier bullet deeper when expanded to the same diameter. See above for what this means.
BUT we all (or at least most) acknowlege that you need "enough penetration"--and once that point is reached, "more penetration" is not needed (because you've exited target, and there is nothing less to pentrate). Most of the .40 S&W current generation JHPs designed for LE/defence have "enough penetration" (and anything more is a waste). So, when it comes to practical penetration (for LE/defence), it's pretty much a wash between the .40 S&W and 10mm.

As for bullets (and bullet weights), again, it pretty much wash (particularly when it comes to bullets designed for LE/defence). In fact, the 10mm relies almost entirely on bullets designed for the .40 S&W (e.g., Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, etc.). If anything, performance of these bullets may suffer when driven much beyond .40 S&W velocities (e.g., we know the 180-grain Gold Dot folds back on itself resulting in less actual expansion once you reach ~1300 fps).

There is absolutely nothing to indicate the .40 S&W gives up anything to the 10mm in a LE/defence role (and lot to indicate their performance is pretty much wash). The .40 S&W's advantages (and why the 10mm is largely DOA as LE/defence round) are that it does it with a smaller, more convenient, more ergonomic, more shootable platform. The .40 S&W killed the 10mm as a LE/defence calibre because, all things considered, it is a better calibre for that role.

The 10mm is very good, very versatile calibre, but when you limit it to strictly a LE/defence role, there are better choices (not necessarily based on ballistics but on a whole host of other considerations including weapon availablity, ammo availabity and cost, weapon size and weight, shootability, etc.).
 
I did say the .40 has better stopping power then the 10mm.
:uhoh:

The .40 S&W's advantages (and why the 10mm is largely DOA as LE/defence round) are that it does it with a smaller, more convenient, more ergonomic, more shootable platform. The .40 S&W killed the 10mm as a LE/defence calibre because, all things considered, it is a better calibre for that role.
THat actually makes sense, but then
There is absolutely nothing to indicate the .40 S&W gives up anything to the 10mm in a LE/defence role
I mean, does anything indicate to you that .40sw gives up anything to rifles? You had me, then you lost me.
 
Easier to conceal? Maybe. The G-29 may have something to say about that. Is the .40 better or equal to the .357mag? Don't know, but if you say the 10mm has nothing to gain over the .40 in a SD role, then you have to be willing to say the .357mag has nothing to add to the .40, because for all intensive purposes, the 10mm is an autoloading .357mag.:D
 
BUT we all (or at least most) acknowlege that you need "enough penetration"--and once that point is reached, "more penetration" is not needed (because you've exited target, and there is nothing less to pentrate).

So what exactly is that point? I think we can all agree that more penetration is likely needed to stop a 6'2" 345 lb man than a 5'8" 155 lb man, all else being equal. A .380 will achieve adequate penetration in a normal sized man (about 5'10", 180 lbs), but I can think of many times when I've seen guys that could probably absorb an entire magazine of .380 ammo in the torso and keep on going.

Actual terminal performance of most mid-power handgun rounds (.40, .45, 10mm, .357 mag) are quite similar, but why not choose the one that performs just a little bit better if you can handle it? I don't tell people th .40 is inadequate for SD, but no one with their head screwed on straight would suggest the .40 is ballistically superior to the 10mm in any way. Would one call the .30-30 Win. superior to the .30-06? Because that is the performance gap we are looking at; 50% increase.
 
My thought on caliber

9mm cheap, plentiful and will penetrate target. poor knock down potential
45 cal. not as cheap, plentiful and has knock down power and serious recoil
40 cal. just right. Less likely penetrate, has the knock down power and less recoil than 45 cal.
I just bought Springfield xd-40 3" for concealed carry. Perfect fit, 1000k rounds at range, no ftf. Love it. Can't recommend it strongly enough.
Check out on-point firearms in St. Pete Fl.
 
I like the GLOCK 23 in 40 S&W. I have one and it takes some time to get use to it. I believe it is a very good defense round, bigger than a 9mm and faster than 45 ACP. A good compromise caliber.
 
In my order of preference having shot all 3 in many different guns, except 10mm, only in a glock.

.45 first, easy to shoot, big bullet, stopping power

10mm second, big bullet, lots of power and loads

.40 third, faster and harder than 9mm, but I don't like the "snap" of it, would rather shoot 10mm.

9mm last, because I shoot a bigger bullet just as fast and accurately, and I live in CA so we are only allowed 10 rnd mags.


Carry as big as you can handle.
 
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