briansmithwins
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Somebody with a pistol 200 yards away shooting at me is a active threat. The fact the he's chosen a relatively ineffective weapon doesn't mean he can't get lucky or I can't be unlucky.
BSW
9mm Carbine for defense?
- Thread starter Panzerschwein
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Somebody with a pistol 200 yards away shooting at me is a active threat. The fact the he's chosen a relatively ineffective weapon doesn't mean he can't get lucky or I can't be unlucky.
BSW
Plastic is plastic.
Wood is wood.
Metal is metal.
I don't see hwo you can believe some but not all of those ^
Besides, there's plenty of metal that is pretty important to the function involved in making those carbines
There are tons of advantages that have nothing to do with effective range.
And a person shooting at me from 200 yards with with a pistol is absolutely an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death.
RX-178
Member
There's also the logical blunder in the (I assume unintended) implication that bad guys 200yds away would only have a pistol.
BSA1
member
Yes...
BUT...
ONLY if it uses the same hi-cap magazines as my semi-auto handgun.
However I come to view a .223 AR or AK as a better choice for several reasons the least not being price as I can buy a S&W Sport cheaper than the Berretta and next to impossible to find Kel-Tec's.
BUT...
ONLY if it uses the same hi-cap magazines as my semi-auto handgun.
However I come to view a .223 AR or AK as a better choice for several reasons the least not being price as I can buy a S&W Sport cheaper than the Berretta and next to impossible to find Kel-Tec's.
yzguy87
Member
I don't personally own own one but I wouldnt hesitatate to use one. I've shot my buddy's Hi Point 9mm carbine and I liked it.
I use a 9mm pistol for my house gun.
I use a 9mm pistol for my house gun.
I voted no based upon JHP bullet performance at increased carbine velocities. JHP bullets are designed to expand/adequately penetrate w/i velocity window parameters. Increase the surface area of the hollow cavity and the bullet will perform at slower velocities, short barrel ammunition. Reduce the hollow cavity surface area and JHPs will expand at faster velocities, think .357SIG/.357mag.Pistol caliber carbines really seem to draw a lot of flack when it comes to discussions about defensive arms. Especially those chambered in the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge. Critics are often quick to denounce these guns as nothing more than range toys with no real capabilities as a self defense option. I don't have much of a dog in this fight but I've been looking into picking up a Beretta CX4 Storm in 9mm for quite some time now. I have a rather small arsenal at this time, so something with multipurpose capabilities is really needed for me. I plan to use the CX4 Storm as mostly a range/plinking gun, but I'm wondering if it could also pull double duty as a home defense or SHTF gun.
So I decided to make this poll just to get the general consensus on using pistol caliber carbines for defense, especially those chambered in 9mm. What are your thoughts on this? This should be an informative thread.
Using Gold Dots as an example, their 124gr/147gr offerings are basically deep cavity designs. This 147gr Gold Dot was tested @1155fps;
This 124gr Gold Dot over expanded at only 1268fps, take this bullet into the 1300s and its front will blow off like the above 147gr did;
Here's a comparison to the 125gr shallow cavity design loaded to 1289fps in 9mm;
The 1289fps appears to be at the lower end of the 125gr velocity window, I've taken this bullet to ~1438fps in .38 Super and it's good for ~16" penetration, much better than the ~7" penetration of the over expanded 124gr Gold Dot.
I have a CX-4 Storm in .40 and bullet performance is lacking because of their deep cavity design.
There are simply better carbine choices for home defense than pistol calibers, especially so given that one uses a pistol to get to a shot gun or rifle caliber.
gunownerz
Member
9mm is great for defense but you would have to be on the look out for a traveling bullets going through walls. It would certainly cease the capability of an intruder exiting the house easily. However, if you're not concerned about the collateral damage a 9mm weapon would cause then it is an excellent choice for home defense. Otherwise, I would maybe gear towards a little bit lower caliber.
I voted yes but I do believe that if you are going to carry a rifle for protection it should be in rifle caliber. If you carry a pistol for protection it should be in a pistol calibers. Pistol calibers are better in rifles than in pistols but why handicap yourself with pistol caliber in a rifle? I do have a couple PCCs and wouldn't hesitate using them for defense if that's all I had. But I don't so I won't
Some potential reasons include lesser recoil, less expensive ammo, ammo/magazine compatibility with your pistols, or light weight.
I choose a carbine in 5.56 first. Second choice would be a 12 gauge. Third choice would be a pistol caliber carbine.
But for other people...maybe my wife for example...the pistol caliber carbine might be the best choice.
PCCs, being blowback, have as much perceived recoil as 5.56. I remember being surprised by the recoil when I first fired my SUB-9 at a carbine class. The instructors also commented, after firing, that they were surprised it had that much felt recoil.
Now, 5.56 has very little recoil, anyway, so unless you're talking about one of the rare gas-operated PCCs, it's probably better to just leave recoil out of the consideration.
John
Now, 5.56 has very little recoil, anyway, so unless you're talking about one of the rare gas-operated PCCs, it's probably better to just leave recoil out of the consideration.
John
I thought about this one a lot. I looked very hard at the CX4 carbine and the Hi-point and kel-tec's offerings all in 9mm. I also considered an AR in .223.
In the end, my primary choice of defensive weapon was the 9mm pistol. Its powerful enough with defensive ammo, and not so harsh that my smaller and recoil-sensitive wife can handle it adequately. The pistol also has the advantage of being more compact for moving through doorways and such that I might have to do to round up my family. It can also be fired very accurately 1-handed (I am a bullseye shooter).
We also have a .223 AR at the ready if I need to go mobile and want more firepower and less over-penetration potential.
Between the pistols and the AR's we have, I couldn't justify the 9mm carbine. That said, I voted yes because I think it is a valid defense platform, provided you load it with the right ammo and it can reliably digest it.
In the end, my primary choice of defensive weapon was the 9mm pistol. Its powerful enough with defensive ammo, and not so harsh that my smaller and recoil-sensitive wife can handle it adequately. The pistol also has the advantage of being more compact for moving through doorways and such that I might have to do to round up my family. It can also be fired very accurately 1-handed (I am a bullseye shooter).
We also have a .223 AR at the ready if I need to go mobile and want more firepower and less over-penetration potential.
Between the pistols and the AR's we have, I couldn't justify the 9mm carbine. That said, I voted yes because I think it is a valid defense platform, provided you load it with the right ammo and it can reliably digest it.
I'm pretty happy with a 9mm pistol for defense, so I think I'd be happy with a 'rifle' version.
Yes there are better choices, but the question was 'would I be comfortable?'
Yes there are better choices, but the question was 'would I be comfortable?'
justice06rr
Member
If it was my only choice, then yes I would take a PCC for SD purpose.
Given other choices including a rifle caliber long gun or 12g shotgun, I would choose those first before a PCC.
My general rule is keep rifle calibers in rifles, and pistol calibers in pistols (personal preference only). IMO a Glock19/17 with a 30rd mag is just as effective and more portable than a PCC in the same caliber and capacity.
Given other choices including a rifle caliber long gun or 12g shotgun, I would choose those first before a PCC.
My general rule is keep rifle calibers in rifles, and pistol calibers in pistols (personal preference only). IMO a Glock19/17 with a 30rd mag is just as effective and more portable than a PCC in the same caliber and capacity.
barnbwt
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This is why I advocate that we need more guns like the 30 Carbine, which operate from a locked breech. With a fixed breech, the rest of the gun can be scaled down along with the cartridge, to the point you have a handgun. I personally do not know why no pistol caliber recoil-operated guns based on handgun chassis are offered, since a longer-barreled PX4 pistol with a stock would be well under 5 pounds, be much smaller than an AR or similar, have a round more suited to the task at hand, be independent of gas-op peculiarities, and cost no more to make than a handgun (less materials). Scaled-down gas-op guns like the M1 Carbine have many benefits, but cost as much to make as a full-size rifle version, and it's much easier to sell the bigger gun if the cost is the same
.I think a long-barreled/stocked Steyr TMP would be a fantastic defensive carbine.
Dial down the sight, replace the can with a foregrip tube, add a sturdier and more comfortable stock, and you'll have what I'm going for (I'd want it in 7.62x25, but whatever
). The rotating barrel lockup will be more amenable to a barrel length increase than a tilting Browning design.To the "AR is bettur" guys, know this; pistol-caliber subguns ruled the roost for over fifty years (1930's to the 1980's) during which the AR and 223 were both present for a good portion. That's about as long as bolt-rifles were popular with militaries, and we have no questions about their effectiveness. AR carbines have been super popular for around half that time, and among civvies for what, five years or so? I wouldn't reject 70+ years of solid, reliable performance for the new kid on the block just yet
And can your AR do this?
"My general rule is keep rifle calibers in rifles, and pistol calibers in pistols"
Who decides what is a "rifle caliber" or a "pistol caliber" and what does 30 Carbine count as? 500 S&W? What about 45 Win Mag, 357, 10mm, 7.62x25, 5.7x28? Where is the line drawn, and why? Neither revolvers nor bolo pistols need the rounds to fit in a hand grip, after all
If not for our dumb SBR laws, not a single railed pistol would go without a foregrip and stock unless it was used for daily concealed carry. There's a reason pistol ranges are usually about a quarter as long as rifle ranges, and it's not because the guns are less accurate
. Control, retention, stability, and control (again).TCB
montanaoffroader
Member
Yes I would be "comfortable" using a PCC for home defense. Not my first choice, but it's a whole lot better than a kitchen knife or a golf club.
The real question here is whether or not YOU are comfortable with it. As long as you are OK with it and it has enough power to do the job, nothing else really matters.
The real question here is whether or not YOU are comfortable with it. As long as you are OK with it and it has enough power to do the job, nothing else really matters.
Remember a carbine wil accelerate standard 9mm to +P velocities from their longer barrels, and accuracy skyrockets. Running a light solid copper or bonded HP (115gr) or even some of the lighter loads, like .380 bullets - over penetration will not be too much of a problem ,as all that energy will be dumped on target and probably not exit. The added weight and size will make recoil miniscule for quick follow up shots, as fast as you can pull the trigger.
OP
OP
Panzerschwein
member
That's a good idea Stressed. I myself would really like to see some ammo manufacturers come out with 9mm (and other caliber) loads specifically designed for carbines, with more appropriate powders and perhaps more robust hollow points that would give the best performance from 16"+ barrels- you know, for those that can't or don't reload.
briansmithwins
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Recoil operation would add complexity that's not needed when you have the larger subgun sized frame to work with. Blowback is simple to manufacture, works, and is cheap.
For example, the MP5 (delayed blowback) isn't that much lighter than an Uzi (blowback) and is much more complex internally. The advantage the MP5 had for cops was the closed bolt, which made firing single rounds quickly accurately (typical cop training was to shoot single rounds, not FA) easier than the Uzi's open bolt.
BSW
And we all know that you need 3x the power inside the house....and you really need it if you live in an apartment.
Tools for the JOB and this the OP stated for home def.
The biggest worry is where that bullet is going to go if you miss, and most folks that have never been shot at before, or are in a life or death instance are just a little jumpy and have a good chance to miss. Second is where is that going to go after it goes in one side and out the other of Mr. Bad Guy.
I always say you main focus in such an instance is to stop Mr. Bad Guy not kill him.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
Can you explain?
We all know that handgun cartridges lack the threat stopping efficacy of a rifle cartridge or a shotgun, and we all know (even if we didn't learn it until reading this thread) that a properly selected projectile from a 5.56/.223 carbine penetrates FEWER interior walls than a typical handgun cartridge (while maintaining that added threat stopping ability)...and surely we all know that being inside the house doesn't mean that the lethal threat is necessarily any less of a lethal threat than it would be somewhere else...
So I'm not sure what you are going for here.
I see the issue now.
You are confused about the terminal ballistics of a carbine in 5.56/.223.
I suggest looking up what happens when 5.56/.223 enters Mr. Bad Guy.
As well as looking up what happens when 5.56/.223 hits a wall, vs when a handgun round hits a wall.
Dr. Rob
Exactly, and why I voted yes. All (Most) of the reasons put forth about better choices are true, but I can assure you no one wants me shooting at them with an AR15 in 9MM, whether the bullets over expand or under expand. Yep, my 870 with buckshot would be more affective in the house, but I would be comfortable with a 9MM carbine, and that was the question after all.
gunownerz
Member
Yeah, my fingers were moving faster than my head.
The 9mm is a pretty versatile round. I think with all things you have to look at the load that you are using.
You could load your carbine with things like Cor-Bon, and you've got something close to a rifle bullet - a 90gr .355 projectile @ 1750 fps.
From what I've seen, the 147gr rounds go from 990(ish) fps to 1075-1095 fps, from pistol barrel lenth versus carbine / 16"
If you have a round that is nearing jacket separation in media @ 990 fps, there is a pretty good chance it will separate if fired from a carbine. But there are such things as bonded bullets.
One of the things about the 147gr Speer Gold Dot is that it does hold together at 1175 fps - because the Underwood +P+ doesn't disintegrate in tests.
So I think a standard pressure 147gr Gold Dot would do fine as a HD round through a 16" barrel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c
I'm also wondering if shooting the Underwood 147gr +P+ through a carbine barrel bumps up the velocity to the point that the bullet does disintegrate. I'd love to see someone test it.
You could load your carbine with things like Cor-Bon, and you've got something close to a rifle bullet - a 90gr .355 projectile @ 1750 fps.
From what I've seen, the 147gr rounds go from 990(ish) fps to 1075-1095 fps, from pistol barrel lenth versus carbine / 16"
If you have a round that is nearing jacket separation in media @ 990 fps, there is a pretty good chance it will separate if fired from a carbine. But there are such things as bonded bullets.
One of the things about the 147gr Speer Gold Dot is that it does hold together at 1175 fps - because the Underwood +P+ doesn't disintegrate in tests.
So I think a standard pressure 147gr Gold Dot would do fine as a HD round through a 16" barrel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c
I'm also wondering if shooting the Underwood 147gr +P+ through a carbine barrel bumps up the velocity to the point that the bullet does disintegrate. I'd love to see someone test it.
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