9mm Carbine for defense?

[danez71]

Even my simple mind can think of several obvious things.

Baiting?

 

[Zach S]

I guess you could look at it another way - If you have a duty sized 9mm, a pocket nine and a 9mm carbine, basically using 9mm for everything. you're screwed if 9mm ammo supply dries up.

On the flipside, if your three primary defense guns are one caliber, you're more likely to have ammo on hand if supply dries up.

I still have a .50 cal can of 9mm and a partial .30 cal can. It wasn't my primary defense caliber, but it was cheap.

 

[fpgt72]

If anyone breaks into your home wearing that kind of gear and armed as they were, you have much bigger problems than which caliber you need.

That situation was far, far, from the average self defense situation.

But that really wasn't the nature of the OP's question IMO. We are talking about the common self defense situation a civilian might find themselves in, not what round is adequate for police and military personal for the worst of situations.

I know of no one who thinks the .223 is a high powered round by the way, and the army certainly knows better, or it wouldn't have .308 and .50 BMG weapons.

Not the point I was making....High powered was the point.

And you all can think all you want, but I have a feeling I have seen more dead bodies with bullet holes in them than many of you....and where that bullet ended up going. Just remember your studies and all your facts if you go off in cuffs because that bullet went somewhere you did not intend for it to go.

And I can also see I am not going to change your mind and you and not going to erase my memory so I think it is best that I am done here before someone locks the thread.

 

[JShirley]

Okay, if scientific, repeatable tests show bullet a (in this case, carbine) penetrates less than bullet b (handgun), it is foolish to claim some other result is what's likely to happen.

Put another way, it makes no sense to expect less penetration from cartridges that have consistently demonstrated more. And, yes, color us crazy that we would believe fact (you might want to look that word up) over the opinion of some random person on the internet.

I have also done my own testing, and the 5.56 carbine, with the rounds I tested, had significantly less penetration than 9x19mm. We still have the responsibility to know our target and what lies beyond, but we can act to minimize additional risks.

John

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Has their been a single instance of someone, at home, shooting at a home intruder. and hitting a Innocent because of over penetration of the SD round?

 

[2zulu1]

Has their been a single instance of someone, at home, shooting at a home intruder. and hitting a Innocent because of over penetration of the SD round?

We had a case, decades ago, in which there was an accidental 9mm discharge from a mobile home, in a mobile home park, that entered an adjacent mobile home, killing a ~11 girl as she slept in her bed.

Here's a set up I did for testing a 9mm/147gr Gold Dot l-r, wood 4x4, steel washing machine lid, cow rib bone and water;





The expanded Gold Dot penetrated all three barriers and had enough retained velocity to "pop" the cap of a two liter bottle;



In order for JHPs to penetrate intermediate barriers, petals often fold inward (rivet) while expanding;

 

[Texan Scott]

If there's something inside your house that 20+ rounds of 9mm jhp (at carbine velocities, too!) won't take care of, you might oughta consider something belt-fed with AP rounds.

There will be endless debate on "better" options. It will be endless because when what you have meets the objective, "better" is subjective.

Being better with what you have is more important than buying better than what you have. What'd the man say? Mind set > skill set > tool set?

 

[dprice3844444]

http://www.justrightcarbines.com/JR_Carbine_Products.html 9mm/40/45 using glock mags
and ar15 parts

 

[Warp]

If there's something inside your house that 20+ rounds of 9mm jhp (at carbine velocities, too!) won't take care of, you might oughta consider something belt-fed with AP rounds.

There will be endless debate on "better" options. It will be endless because when what you have meets the objective, "better" is subjective.

Being better with what you have is more important than buying better than what you have. What'd the man say? Mind set > skill set > tool set?

I think that, more often than not, the limiting factor is the amount of time you have to fire your rounds. Not how many rounds you have in your gun/mag.

Sure, sure, mind set > skill > tool set.

But some tools are still better than others.

 

[Texan Scott]

You don't need a machine gun. You don't need thirty rounds. ... Buy a shotgun. Fire *two* blasts. Nobody's gonna stick around after that.

Advice from a highly placed government authority.

Trust me, I'm dyin' over here.

 

[Deer_Freak]

I voted no based upon JHP bullet performance at increased carbine velocities. JHP bullets are designed to expand/adequately penetrate w/i velocity window parameters. Increase the surface area of the hollow cavity and the bullet will perform at slower velocities, short barrel ammunition. Reduce the hollow cavity surface area and JHPs will expand at faster velocities, think .357SIG/.357mag.

Using Gold Dots as an example, their 124gr/147gr offerings are basically deep cavity designs. This 147gr Gold Dot was tested @1155

This 124gr Gold Dot over expanded at only 1268fps, take this bullet into the 1300s and its front will blow off like the above 147g

Here's a comparison to the 125gr shallow cavity design loaded to 1289fps in 9mm.

The 1289fps appears to be at the lower end of the 125gr velocity window, I've taken this bullet to ~1438fps in .38 Super and it's good for ~16" penetration, much better than the ~7" penetration of the over expanded 124gr Gold Dot.

I have a CX-4 Storm in .40 and bullet performance is lacking because of their deep cavity design.

There are simply better carbine choices for home defense than pistol calibers, especially so given that one uses a pistol to get to a shot gun or rifle caliber.

Believe it or not some people shoot FMJ ammo. I don't shoot HP ammo in a 9mm pistol. My 22 wmr rifle rivals the 9mm from a 4" barrel in energy on the target. I don't believe a hollow point will deliver adequate penetration. When you get into magnum calibers they are easily loaded with JSP ammo.

 

[Warp]

Believe it or not some people shoot FMJ ammo. I don't shoot HP ammo in a 9mm pistol. My 22 wmr rifle rivals the 9mm from a 4" barrel in energy on the target. I don't believe a hollow point will deliver adequate penetration. When you get into magnum calibers they are easily loaded with JSP ammo.

How did you come to this conclusion/belief?


A good JHP out of a 9x19 pistol is going to be a more reliable threat-stopper than FMJ.

 

[AKElroy]

How is shooting three things that I can penetrate with my fist going to tell me something about my choice of self defense ammo?

Exactly. I'm going to go out on a limb here. There is NO effective defensive ammo that will be likewise stopped by a half-inch of Sheetrock. KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT, and hit it with something effective.

 

[AKElroy]

Originally Posted by Deer_Freak
Believe it or not some people shoot FMJ ammo. I don't shoot HP ammo in a 9mm pistol. My 22 wmr rifle rivals the 9mm from a 4" barrel in energy on the target. I don't believe a hollow point will deliver adequate penetration. When you get into magnum calibers they are easily loaded with JSP ammo.

I'm with post 87. Where are you reading this? This is almost perfectly inaccurate regarding the 9mm. If you are talking .25 or .32ACP, then you have an argument for FMJ. Not due to a lack of penetration, though. The lower velocity of these mouse guns is often insufficient to allow expansion to occur. Since FMJ's offer a tad more feed reliability, I might carry them in a .32. Not in a 9mm.

 

[Deer_Freak]

Given that 9mm HP ammo usually penetrates 11" in gelatin. That doesn't include leather coats or winter clothing the 9mm HP just doesn't satisfy me. I make my own decisions when it comes to the ammo I am going to shoot. I don't let a professional ammo salesman do it for me. Especially when FMJ ammo blows right through a 24" block of gelatin. What happens if your 9mm is loaded with HP ammo and some idiot tries to run you down in a car? I want a round that will bust through the windshield and stop the driver. The FMJ will get the job done.

 

[Warp]

Given that 9mm HP ammo usually penetrates 11" in gelatin. That doesn't include leather coats or winter clothing the 9mm HP just doesn't satisfy me. I make my own decisions when it comes to the ammo I am going to shoot. I don't let a professional ammo salesman do it for me. Especially when FMJ ammo blows right through a 24" block of gelatin. What happens if you 9mm is loaded with HP ammo and some idiot tries to run you down in a car? I want a round that will bust through the windshield and stop the driver. The FMJ will get the job done.

1. Which round are you referring to that you believe penetrates 11" in gel?

2. Do you realize that heavy winter clothing is more likely to INCREASE penetration, than decrease, due to the hollow point cavity clogging? Seriously, compared to skin, tissue, bone, etc that you find in people and animals, a coat and a sweatshirt is basically nothing.

3. If you are worried about shooting somebody through an automotive windshield I would select a bonded JHP, such as a Speer Gold Dot. That said, plenty of officers have fired non bonded rounds through windshields without issue.

4. The fact that FMJ goes through 24" or more of gel is a liability to many people, because that could very easily go right through your attacker even on a perfect and careful shot, only to continue on and seriously injure or kill somebody else, when a JHP is much much less likely to do that.

You are welcome to make your own decisions, but your listed reasons don't hold up. It might be easier if you kept them to yourself, because once you start giving them out on a public forum other people are simply going to correct you, if for no other reason than to keep the fence-sitters who are listening/reading in from thinking that carrying FMJ 9mm is necessary to get sufficient penetration (it isn't necessary nor recommended)

Have a look around at the ballistics of various 9mm JHP, and then look at what police departments issue, and what kind of success they have.

A couple to get you started:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm Luger/9x19mm Luger Summary Table.pdf

http://le.atk.com/ammunition/

 

[tuj]

What happens if your 9mm is loaded with HP ammo and some idiot tries to run you down in a car?

this. Goes right through.

http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/calibers/45-acp/why-we-use-barnes-bullets/

 

[Bobson]

Pistol caliber carbines really seem to draw a lot of flack when it comes to discussions about defensive arms. Especially those chambered in the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge. Critics are often quick to denounce these guns as nothing more than range toys with no real capabilities as a self defense option.

This makes no sense to me. Anyone who is comfortable carrying a handgun chambered in 9x19 for SD ought to be equally comfortable using a carbine chambered in 9x19 for the same purpose, as it's only going to be more effective. Yes, over-penetration may be more common, but if one follows the four rules, penetration needn't warrant any more or less consideration regardless of the platform.

My EDC is in 9x19, and while I don't own any pistol-caliber carbine, I would be perfectly comfortable using one for HD. It may not be ideal, but I wouldn't feel limited by it.

 

[Walkalong]

I have never ever planned a defense against being run down by a car, aside from moving laterally, a feat which evidently cannot be accomplished in film.

Besides, I'll be shooting at the tires, and would still be OK with having a 9MM carbine. You cannot plan for the exact situation you will be in, because you simply have no idea, not being clairvoyant and all, and just have to have something good for most common situations.

If I was clairvoyant, and I knew I was going to be attacked by a car tomorrow, I would take my .458 Win Mag.

I have trusted my life to smaller caliber weapons with shorter barrels often, and would be comfortable using a 9MM Carbine for doing so.

 

[AKElroy]

I don't let a professional ammo salesman do it for me. Especially when FMJ ammo blows right through a 24" block of gelatin

How much energy is being transferred on a through and through? Take a peak at wound channel damage from a good HP vs. a 24" .355 hole. For that matter, compare it to JHP's from the .40 S&W, .357 sig and .45ACP. they are all virtually identical. Sure, an FMJ will likely kill or maim the assailant, but he will likely have plenty of time to do some damage while figuring out he's been shot. A good JHP is going to dump 400-500 ft lbs INTO THE TARGET, not spend it bouncing around for another half mile.

 

[Warp]

How much energy is being transferred on a through and through? Take a peak at wound channel damage from a good HP vs. a 24" .355 hole. Sure, it will likely kill or maim the assailant, but he will likely have plenty of time to do some damage while figuring out he's been shot. A good JHP is going to dump 400-500 ft lbs INTO THE TARGET, not spend it bouncing around for another half mile.

Exactly.

Which is why the .357 magnum 125gr JHP earned such a great reputation as a threat stopper, aka the magic bullet

 

[AKElroy]

Fun link below. Check out the 4th and 5th slides. Makes me want a 10mm.

https://www.google.com/search?q=9mm...+.40+vs+.45+vs+10mm&biv=i|3;d|agzWkl4N0MUzVM:

 

[JShirley]

Most 9x19 JHP penetrates considerably more than 11" of gel.

 

[Welding Rod]

No. If it comes to grounds for shooting, I want a better chance at stopping the aggression immediately. Particularly if the aggressor has fangs and/or claws.

 

[2zulu1]

Given that 9mm HP ammo usually penetrates 11" in gelatin. That doesn't include leather coats or winter clothing the 9mm HP just doesn't satisfy me. I make my own decisions when it comes to the ammo I am going to shoot. I don't let a professional ammo salesman do it for me. Especially when FMJ ammo blows right through a 24" block of gelatin. What happens if your 9mm is loaded with HP ammo and some idiot tries to run you down in a car? I want a round that will bust through the windshield and stop the driver. The FMJ will get the job done.

Lots of misinformation in your post, the 9mm typically provides FBI protocol penetration using service JHPs, FMJs produce minimal crush cavities compared to JHPs. Energy dump in service calibers is a myth, you should educate yourself about terminal ballistics before posting inaccurate opinions IMO.

Both of these books come highly recommended and should be personal libraries for those interested in this subject;