9mm out of a carbine vs. out of a pistol

[rc135]

I recently read a review of the Hi-Point 9mm carbine vs. the Ruger PC9 carbine (the much cheaper Hi-Point won hands down in most categories!) and I was wondering: I know that .357 magnum cartridges, et al, gain a lot more velocity out of a carbine/lever action compared to even 6" or 8" barrelled revolvers -- does the 9mm cartridge also gain a similar amount of velocity being fired from a carbine?

Appreciate your honest comments in advance.

URL for the article referred to above:
http://www.mkssupply.com/documents/guntest.pdf

"In wartime, truth is so precious, she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies" Winston Churchill

 

[Byron]

My understanding that in factory loads,the increase was about 200 to 250 fps.
Byron

 

[esldude]

I have a Ruger PC9 and Keltec Sub2000. BTW, I think the Sub2K is worth getting over the High Point.

With 147 gr. loads you only get about 100-150 fps. With most lighter loads it will be between 2-300fps depending on bullet weight, brand of ammo etc.

But if shooting HP ammo, you don't really want to get too far from the velocity they are designed for or they may not perform well. They may over expand and underpenetrate at too high a velocity.

 

[grimjaw]

rc135, you should do a search of the forum for 'pistol caliber carbine'. You'll find more information than you asked for.

The lighter bullet weights (115gr) seem to gain more velocity than the heavier ones (147gr). At best, 9x19 out of a rifle barrel gets as much performance as .357 magnum out of a 4"-6" revolver using approximately the same bullet weight (124gr/125gr respectively).

jmm

 

[rangerruck]

the subguns in 9mm are legitimate 100 yd guns. I could hit a 5 inch shoot n see at 100 yds, about 90 times with 100 rounds loaded into mags, and firing pretty fast.

 

[Archie]

Not a lot of difference.

The small size of the case doesn't allow enough powder to take advantage of the longer barrel. Yes, there is gain, but not a drastic increase.

 

[grendelbane]

The lighter bullets do indeed gain more velocity than the heavier ones. However, this is balanced out by the fact that the heavier bullets are heavier.

I know that last sentence doesn't make a lot of sense to some people. I guess the best way to put it is to compare the increase in foot/lbs of energy rather than the increase in velocity. That is more of an apples to apples comparison.

Extra velocity is not always our friend, though. Those nice hollow point bullets are intended to work in a specific velocity window. The carbine length barrel may fire them above that velocity, causing over expansion and under penetration.

Since I consider a pistol caliber carbine to be basically a 100 meter weapon, I generally prefer the heavier bullets. Yes, I have lobbed bullets at longer ranges and actually hit targets. Still, past 100 meters, I think it is best to break out a real rifle.

 

[iamkris]

The big advantage in my opinion is the steadier shooting platform and longer sight radius that a carbine affords over a pistol. No the cartridge isn't anything to crow about but you can but a lot of lead on target (25 yards I get half dollar sized groups for 20 rounds) at lower recoil, penetration (in many cases) and expense as compared to a high powered rifle round.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Typical gain for 9x19 in a 16" carbine vs. 4-5" pistol has been 100-200 FPS in my own testing.

I'll be candid here. Pistol caliber carbines are truly the worst of both worlds. You end up with the mediocre performance of handgun rounds without the portability of a handgun. I have both a Marlin Camp 45 and a Beretta Cx4 9mm. While I enjoy shooting them, they would be the last guns I'd grab in a SHTF scenario. True, you can place more fire more quickly and more accurately than with a handgun, but you can also do this with an AR-15 or AK in a similarly sized package delivering a far more devastating round.

SMG's are a different story, but I would still prefer a select fire rifle unless supression is needed.

 

[dfaugh]

Do a search in the handload/reloading section (either here or TFL)...Someone was experimenting and worked up some loads (fired from a Hi-Point) that chronographed at 1650-1700 fps. It was interesting, because I have often thought that loads "tailored" to a carbine (probably a bit slower powder) would show a pretty good increase in velocity. I keep some +P+ rounds in my Hi-point magazine for HD, theoretically beacuse of the higher velocity I would expect (but haven't proven as I don't have a chronograph).

 

[rc135]

9mm Carbine

Thank you everyone for the assistance/knowledge!


p.s. I'm looking for work in Vermont/New Hampshire/Maine -- will move there as soon as I find it. Any help?? Thanks in advance
Rory:
[email protected]
619-807-5382

 

[SaxonPig]

The 9mm Parabellum is working at max capacity with most factory loads and the longer barrels don't gain much in my experience. I know that I am at a disadvantage here because I have actually shot guns over a chronograph so I don't know as much as some folks who seem to know better on everything, but my S&W M659 with a 4.5" barrel fired Winchester +P+ 115 JHPs at 1250 FPS and the same ammo on the same day from a 16" Marlin M9 "Camp Carbine" clocked 1300 FPS. Small gain. You might be able to tailor some ammo for the carbine using slower burning powder and gain another 100 FPS or so but why bother?

I think the 1700 FPS mentioned earlier must have been with 88 grain bullets or it was a grossly over-loaded case. People get on me about 1700 from a .357 Magnum and doing it with a 9mm would be much, much worse pressure wise.

 

[.45Guy]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but has anyone chronoed 9mm largo out of a destroyer carbine?

 

[dfaugh]

I think the 1700 FPS mentioned earlier must have been with 88 grain bullets or it was a grossly over-loaded case.

Not 88 grn. I'm sure of that. They were either 115 or I THINK 124 grn. IIRC, it was loaded with 8.5 grns. of Blue Dot. Maybe someone that reloads can tell us if that makes any sense. I'll try and find the thread, it wasn't that long ago.

Aha! I found it: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=184477&highlight=9mm+Hi-Point

 

[SaxonPig]

The first thing I noticed was that 15 degree temperature. I wonder how much higher the pressures would run in the summer heat?

1700 FPS and it's below +P range? Man, I think I'd have to see that. I will check my books on that load to see where he's gone with that but IMO any compressed load is starting to ask for trouble.

 

[jjohnson]

It Depends!

:banghead:

Yeah, I just knew you'd like that. But it's true - it depends.

One thing you have to remember is that you can use your longer barrel, say, in your Contender to boost a little if you want to use slower burning powders that need over ten inches worth of barrel to finish burning. You'll still get a usable round out of, say, your Luger - along with a big blue/orange flash - in the pistol barrel. You could maybe get another 200 fps out of the long barrel if you're picking your load carefully.

The OTHER thing though that you have to consider is your carbine. I have a Marlin Camp9 and I don't get much extra velocity out of the barrel BECAUSE IT'S A BLOWBACK design - the breech does NOT lock. So when that bolt decides to open, I still have a little gas blowing back at me with slow powders and gobs of gunk to clean up when I'm done. So.... which carbine do you have in mind? You still can't make your 9mm carbine safely pretend it's a .357 - don't try - but you gotta consider not just barrel length here, but whether you're using a locked breech carbine.

Stay safe. Sorry to throw technocrap at you.

 

[grendelbane]

I agree there is a difference between locked breech and blow-back carbines.

(Not sure how many locked breech 9mm carbines are out there, but I do own one, a Spanish Destroyer carbine, 9mm Largo, but still a 9mm!).

There is also a measurable difference between blow back carbines with light bolts, and heavy bolts. Thanks to Mr. Newton, the blow back carbines with heavier bolts will actually produce slightly higher velocities, in addition to being friendlier to loads with slower burning powders.

The Marlin carbines have very light bolts. I suspect that is why some people think carbine length barrels are not that much of an improvement velocity wise. My AR15 9mm generally shows a slightly better performance.

I tend to think of my AR15 9mm carbine as being equivalent to my .38 Super Gov't model.

Makes me wish I had an AR15 carbine chambered for 9x23mm Winchester!

 

[MachIVshooter]

Not 88 grn. I'm sure of that. They were either 115 or I THINK 124 grn. IIRC, it was loaded with 8.5 grns. of Blue Dot. Maybe someone that reloads can tell us if that makes any sense. I'll try and find the thread, it wasn't that long ago.

Actual data (all of these loads use CCI magnum primers and are over max; do not attempt)

Load...................................Beretta 92FS......Beretta Cx4.......Difference

90 gr. 6.8 grs. W231 .................1628.................1794...............166

115 gr. 6.3 grs. Unique ..............1410.................1527...............117

124 gr. 5.5 grs. W231.................1243.................1402...............159

147 gr. 6.5 grs. Blue Dot.............1114..................1255...............141

147 gr. 5.5 grs. W231.................1244..................1396...............152

As I said, all of these loads are VERY WARM, so to push a 124 gr. pill to 1,700 FPS even from a 16" barrel is playing with fire (if even possible; these loads were either very dense or compressed)

 

[Evil Monkey]

So the whole point of this thread is that firing a pistol cartridge out from a 16" barrel carbine is pointless because there is no large increase of kinetic energy and that you should stick to rifles instead?

 

[MachIVshooter]

So the whole point of this thread is that firing a pistol cartridge out from a 16" barrel carbine is pointless because there is no large increase of kinetic energy and that you should stick to rifles instead?

Basically, yes.

(though the story does change a bit with the big boomers like .44 and .454)

 

[50caliber123]

why do people either love or hate pistol-caliber carbines? I love my hi-point. It pairs well with my S&W 59 in ammo commonality.

 

[SaxonPig]

Jeff Cooper once questioned the concept of a carbine in a pistol caliber, asking why carry the extra weight of a longgun that "strikes the same blow" as a pistol?

Good point. For me, if I were using a rifle for serious use, I would want rifle cartridge power. But some people, for various reasons, prefer a handy rifle to a handgun and only want pistol level power out of it. Fine by me. I have several handgun caliber rifles but to me they are for fun, not business.

Although I certainly wouldn't feel helpless if I had to defend myself with a Marlin Camp Carbine.

M4S's chart sounds reasonable to me. An extra 150 FPS or so seems within range. An extra 500-600 FPS sounds fantastic to me. I mean that in the disbelief way.

 

[dfaugh]

As I said, all of these loads are VERY WARM, so to push a 124 gr. pill to 1,700 FPS even from a 16" barrel is playing with fire (if even possible; these loads were either very dense or compressed

)

Yeah, I would have to say these are in the +P range, if not +P+....BUT, most of the pistol caliber carbines (Including my cheapo Hi-Point) ARE rated for +P+ loads. Mine works well with them in fact.

As to why you would wanna use a pistol caliber carbine, I personally think they make alot of sense. My Hi-Point weighs almost nothing (and perceived recoil is about zero). It's short and handy, and magazine fed, so I can keep it safely unloaded, but load it in a split second. It gives me at least as much power (especially with +P+ loads) as a handgun. It has a longer sight radius so longer (say 50 yard) shots can be made accurately. If nothing else, it'll keep the BGs occupied until I can get to something "better".

Not my first choice for HD, but not bad either...Would let me get to something better if I can't stop the BGs with it.

 

[Evil Monkey]

Would let me get to something better if I can't stop the BGs with it.

What scenario were you fantasicing about?

If you're in your home and you've got a home intruder problem, you go to where ever you stash your guns, right? Why don't you just grab the best weapon from the start? No need to play around with a wanna-be rifle when you've already got a shotgun.

 

[dfaugh]

What scenario were you fantasicing about?

If you're in your home and you've got a home intruder problem, you go to where ever you stash your guns, right? Why don't you just grab the best weapon from the start? No need to play around with a wanna-be rifle when you've already got a shotgun

I have a very large house(and property). The 9mm carbine hangs in the front closet (next to the front door), with the magazine handy. In the back of the downstairs is my shotgun loaded with 00 buck. Upstairs, in the bedroom, are 2 SKSs, one of which is an SKS-M with 30-40 round AK mags available. The other has several loaded stripper clips ready to go.

So, yes, I would go to the the closest place that has a gun. It might be the 9mm carbine, it might be the shotgun, or it might be the SKS. So, yes, I go for the nearest available weapon, THEN, if I can't stop the BG(s) I "retreat" to the next available weapon.

P.S. The "fallback weapon" is the SKS-M--I keep 240 rounds loaded in magazines. Yes, this is SERIOUS OVERKILL for most situations, but since I have the magazines, why not keep them loaded? I'll also note that both my sons live with me, and would respond using the nearest weapon, if they heard gunfire.