A Hi Point is better looking than anything else??????
M1 Carbine vs new pistol caliber carbines
- Thread starter bersaguy
- Start date
- Status
someguy2800
Member
ammo is expensive and so are M1's
dh1633pm
Contributing Member
For me it wasn't a comparison of capabilities 9 versus 30, just the comparison of cost of shooting each in a lightweight carbine.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
Also to note:
Most PCC divisions in competition games are limited by projectile speed.
30 carbine travels too fast to be used as a PCC in most games.
I checked, cause I wanted to use mine.
30 Carbine can be used as a rifle, however.
Most PCC divisions in competition games are limited by projectile speed.
30 carbine travels too fast to be used as a PCC in most games.
I checked, cause I wanted to use mine.
30 Carbine can be used as a rifle, however.
The M1 Carbine is fast enough that pretty much ANY soft point or hollow point will work.
kBob
Member
Despite all the war stories Marshal and Sanow found over 90 percent one shot stops with Carbine rounds to the chest with FMC based on a couple of hundred police and civilian shootings.
Dr. Martin Fackler used to keep a M1 carbine loaded with soft points next to his bed during his retirement.
Looks like the number crunchers and the gel man agreed on something.........
BTW although I never did it myself one of the load manuals in the early 1970s listed a cast lead plain base 130 grain carbine round that supposedly reliably cycled the action.
Despite this is I were buying a pistol caliber carbine today the availability of new 9x19mm guns at far lower prices than new .30 Carbines AND the ease of finding 9x19mm ammo compared to .30 Carbine AND the availability of common magazines that I might also use in my side arm would lead me to purchase a 9x19mm.
Not selling my GI carbine to buy one though.
Also every time I see someone use "M1C" I cringe as that is the receiver scope mount version of the M1 Garand Rifle, not an abbreviation for M1 Carbine. The M1D uses a mount on the barrel right next to the receiver in contrast.
For a bit I did use something of an M1 "Carbine" that was a shortened M1 Rifle, in this case a BM59 in 7.62 NATO and gee whiz there are folks out there that shoot .308 in single shot pistols sooooo........"pistol caliber carbine?"
-kBob
Dr. Martin Fackler used to keep a M1 carbine loaded with soft points next to his bed during his retirement.
Looks like the number crunchers and the gel man agreed on something.........
BTW although I never did it myself one of the load manuals in the early 1970s listed a cast lead plain base 130 grain carbine round that supposedly reliably cycled the action.
Despite this is I were buying a pistol caliber carbine today the availability of new 9x19mm guns at far lower prices than new .30 Carbines AND the ease of finding 9x19mm ammo compared to .30 Carbine AND the availability of common magazines that I might also use in my side arm would lead me to purchase a 9x19mm.
Not selling my GI carbine to buy one though.
Also every time I see someone use "M1C" I cringe as that is the receiver scope mount version of the M1 Garand Rifle, not an abbreviation for M1 Carbine. The M1D uses a mount on the barrel right next to the receiver in contrast.
For a bit I did use something of an M1 "Carbine" that was a shortened M1 Rifle, in this case a BM59 in 7.62 NATO and gee whiz there are folks out there that shoot .308 in single shot pistols sooooo........"pistol caliber carbine?"
-kBob
Because it's been eclipsed by the Mini-14, the same basic design, with a cheaper, flatter shooting caliber. That's it, down and dirty.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I'm afraid such generalizations are too vague and usually inaccurate.
well then, perhaps you can clarify this? which SP or HP do not perform well?
maxxhavoc
Member
I have a GI model, but...
I have an Auto Ordnance that I bought for $600 that shoots just as well as my GI. Probably will not last as long, but no stretching of the receiver yet. Never bought ammo, just brass. Never lubed a reload, never had a problem. Xtreme sells a Plated pill that works just fine and is cheap to boot. I bought the AO for a knock around gun.
I also have HiPoints and ARs in 9mm. The 30 Carbine has better performance all around (except 50-yard accuracy, the 9mm AR wins there...at 100, the .30 Carbine wins)
However, the M1 Carbine was replaced by the M2, (the M3 was never deployed in significant numbers), and eventually the M4 for a good reason. .223 is better than .30 Carbine. A pistol is a pistol, a rifle is a rifle and all that. The .30 carbine is still essentially a PCC. So while I consider the .30 Carbine the best of the PCCs, it is still just a range toy. If it makes you feel good, you can load your M4 mags with M1 strippers.
I do not have a gas-actuated PCC except the .30 Carbine. Not for wanting one, but that alone sets it apart from the blowbacks for me.
The 30 Carbine round is too long to comfortably fit in a traditional semi handgun layout (a C96 layout would be cool, though), it has been chambered in an AMT and a Ruger revolver, but the fireball and report from a short barrel is a bit much. It will damage most handgun steel targets. It isn't as accurate in an M1 Carbine as most rifle caliber rounds in most rifles. Loaded ammo isn't as cheap as 9mm (duh). So it fails in the PCC usages for a pistol cartridge, as a carry round or as a competition round.
Where it shines is as a home defense or "walk around gun". It has low recoil, it isn't as loud as a 223/5.56 out of a carbine length barrel, and the soft points are very effective in gel and on small to medium game. It is lighter than most rifles that aren't purpose designed to be lightweight.
It isn't my first choice for PCC, but it isn't really a pistol round, anyways.
Where it shines is as a home defense or "walk around gun". It has low recoil, it isn't as loud as a 223/5.56 out of a carbine length barrel, and the soft points are very effective in gel and on small to medium game. It is lighter than most rifles that aren't purpose designed to be lightweight.
It isn't my first choice for PCC, but it isn't really a pistol round, anyways.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Which ones were designed in the last 30yrs?
The M1 Carbine round is the M1 Carbine round.
It is not a pistol round. It was intentionally designed to be more than a pistol round.
It is not a rifleman's round. It was intentionally designed to be less than the rifle rounds of the time.
It was a uniquely American response to the need for what we today call an "intermediate" round.
It is not a pistol round. It was intentionally designed to be more than a pistol round.
It is not a rifleman's round. It was intentionally designed to be less than the rifle rounds of the time.
It was a uniquely American response to the need for what we today call an "intermediate" round.
the burden is on you, so stop ducking the question.
amd6547
Member
Well, I load my CMP Inland Carbine with Hornady Critical Defense 30 Carbine, and I feel very well armed. However, I would feel just as well armed with old school 30 carbine soft points, which have a very good history of actual use, regardless of whatever the latest and greatest JHP pistol bullet is.
Sav .250
Member
Not legal to hunt with in some states. J s/n.
GunnyUSMC
Member
I thought we were looking at the advantages or disadvantages between the 9mm and 30 Carbine and why we might want one over the other.
I think the subject of the effectiveness of bullet designs for the 30 Carbine is better suited for another topic.
Most will agree with me that those of us that have M1 Carbines truly love them. But will also agree that the newer 9mm and other caliber carbines have a better advantage in cost and ammo availability..
I think the subject of the effectiveness of bullet designs for the 30 Carbine is better suited for another topic.
Most will agree with me that those of us that have M1 Carbines truly love them. But will also agree that the newer 9mm and other caliber carbines have a better advantage in cost and ammo availability..
kBob
Member
Gunny,
That is what I keep saying. Dr. Fackler thought the 1960's designed Winchester and Remington .30 Carbine rounds out performed M193 Ball 5.56mm from a 1-12 twist M16A1 in chest wounds of humans based on his experience as a Vietnam war surgeon and head of the Army Wound Ballistics Lab. He even had an interesting high speed X ray of a cadaver being shot with such that was VERY interesting.
Like I have written on THR a number of times and places, he kept an M1 Carbine loaded with those "old school" hollow points by his bed when he lived in the area here. We talked about it a number of times, at club meetings, shooting together or examining M&S's research for flaws.
Some how I trust his ideas on the M1 Carbine and soft points more than "Voices on the internet"
Now if I can just find a good deal on the Ruger PC 9x19mm.........
-kBob
That is what I keep saying. Dr. Fackler thought the 1960's designed Winchester and Remington .30 Carbine rounds out performed M193 Ball 5.56mm from a 1-12 twist M16A1 in chest wounds of humans based on his experience as a Vietnam war surgeon and head of the Army Wound Ballistics Lab. He even had an interesting high speed X ray of a cadaver being shot with such that was VERY interesting.
Like I have written on THR a number of times and places, he kept an M1 Carbine loaded with those "old school" hollow points by his bed when he lived in the area here. We talked about it a number of times, at club meetings, shooting together or examining M&S's research for flaws.
Some how I trust his ideas on the M1 Carbine and soft points more than "Voices on the internet"
Now if I can just find a good deal on the Ruger PC 9x19mm.........
-kBob
CoalTrain49
Member
Hornady FTX, about 5 years ago.
I don't think bullet performance has a lot to do with this discussion. Either M1 or PCC would be used as a range toy or SD. In that scenario they both work very well and ammo to do either is available.
More than likely most people would be shooting FMJ ball in either one for fun at the range.
Last edited:
FN has responded to the REMF's need for a light, small, dependable system with their Personal Defense gear, the FsN, and the PS90(P90).
The Army merely did the same thing back in WWII, with the M1 Carbine. It was smaller, lighter, effective in a high percentage of close range
situations. These weapons aren't Garands or FALs, they are specifically designed for Tankers, Artillery, Medics, and support personnel.
IMO, they were way ahead of their time, and a clarion call to the future changes we've
seen since. They still hold their own, and are appreciated by many. But they are
getting pricey, and there are now more efficient alternatives.
Last edited:
agreed!
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Why in the world would the effectiveness of the cartridge not be a factor? I never said it wasn't effective, because it is. The .44Mag was also effective back in the 1960's with the old cup & core JHP's. However, the 9mm, just as the .44Mag, have become much more effective and much more consistently effective with the development of better bullets. The .30M1 has had virtually no development because its market is tiny.
As has been stated, it's also not a pistol cartridge. Any action designed for it will be too long for the 9mm/.45ACP group of actual pistol cartridges. So if what you want is a .30cal intermediate cartridge that requires an action longer than pistol cartridges, the .300AAC is a better choice anyway with a FAR greater range of capability. Ammo is only slightly more expensive but is still under intense development. Sorry but the .30M1's time has passed.
Not to even mention how loud the .30 is going to be fired indoors, compared to a 9mm carbine.
All factors affecting one's decision for a 9mm carbine over a .30M1.
As has been stated, it's also not a pistol cartridge. Any action designed for it will be too long for the 9mm/.45ACP group of actual pistol cartridges. So if what you want is a .30cal intermediate cartridge that requires an action longer than pistol cartridges, the .300AAC is a better choice anyway with a FAR greater range of capability. Ammo is only slightly more expensive but is still under intense development. Sorry but the .30M1's time has passed.
Not to even mention how loud the .30 is going to be fired indoors, compared to a 9mm carbine.
All factors affecting one's decision for a 9mm carbine over a .30M1.
GunnyUSMC
Member
I was not saying that the effectiveness of one caliber over the other was not relative, but that this topic was not to discus what is the latest and greatest 30 carbine bullet today. That in itself would be a nice topic on it's own.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No but it is about why one would choose a 9mm/10mm/.45ACP over a .30M1 and the fact that bullet/load development for the .30 has been stagnant for decades is a relevant factor. It might not be one YOU care about but it is a factor that might influence one's decision. The relative effectiveness of the cartridges was explicitly referenced in the OP.
- Status
