M1 Carbine vs new pistol caliber carbines

[LiveLife]

there's quite a lot of interest in pistol caliber carbines ... so why not 30 carbine?

Its all about the price of ammo.

I have three M1 Carbines ... I don’t shoot them as much due to the cost of ammo

Because I can reload 9mm with FMJ bullet for less than $6/50.

The M1 Carbine, while a great carbine, shares ammunition with no other practical firearm

And since I can shoot 9mm out of 40 caliber Glocks with conversion barrels, more savings and I don't have to do caliber change for reloading for a shooting session.

I use 9mm carbines for target shooting and plinking. For more effective defensive shooting, I also have Just Right carbine with 45ACP/40S&W barrel conversions but prefer to reach for .300 BLK AR (We have black bear problem where we live).

 

[GunnyUSMC]

No but it is about why one would choose a 9mm/10mm/.45ACP over a .30M1 and the fact that bullet/load development for the .30 has been stagnant for decades is a relevant factor. It might not be one YOU care about but it is a factor that might influence one's decision. The relative effectiveness of the cartridges was explicitly referenced in the OP.

You missed my point. Comparing caliber to caliber, and what is available are good points. But going in depth on what is the best bullet for self defense in a 30 carbine and bullet development in the last 30 years, would be best discussed in a new topic.
I think that most would agree that there is a greater selection of 9mm bullets for reloading then there is for the 30 Carbine. And that there is a larger selection of factory ammo on the market and that 9mm is easier to find then the 30 Carbine..
I love the 30 Carbine but the 9mm has more to offer at this time.
I own three M1 Carbines and one AR9 that takes Glock mags. If SHTF tomorrow, I would be grabbing the AR9 .

 

[CraigC]

No, I didn't. There is no depth to go into. That's kinda the point.

IMHO, this tangent about what is and isn't relevant to the OP is more distracting than any discussion about bullets.

 

[C0untZer0]

I thought we were looking at the advantages or disadvantages between the 9mm and 30 Carbine and why we might want one over the other.

I think the OP encompassed other calibers - specifically more powerful cartridges like 10mm so the OP asked:

why no resurgence in popularity of the M1 Carbine?

I think specific rounds may also play into it. Someone may really really like a specific cartridge - like Gold Dot or HST or whatever. Are there .30 caliber carbine rounds out there that may be just as effective? Maybe, but your average handgun shooter isn't aware of them. Handgun bullets like Hydra-Shok, Federal 9BPLE, Black Talon / Ranger "T" Series and others have built up a following.

bds touched on another point and that is caliber conversion. To the best of my knowledge there aren't any caliber conversion kits for the M1. There are a few pistol caliber carbines out there that convert to different calibers, the Aero Survival Rifle being one of them.

I think being able to convert among calibers - especially .22LR is another thing that makes some PCCs more attractive than the M1 carbine. I'm not an AR expert but I think its fairly easy to put together a collection of parts that mix and match so that you can fire 9mm, 5.56 and 22LR

 

[LiveLife]

I think its fairly easy to put together a collection of parts that mix and match so that you can fire 9mm, 5.56 and 22LR

Using a mag block and heavier H3 buffer, you can convert .223/5.56 AR lower to shoot 9mm. Since higher quality metal blocks cost $100+, many prefer to go with dedicated lowers often on sale for less than $100.

For $129 on sale, CMMG kit will convert .223/5.56 AR to shoot 22LR by simply swapping out the bolt and using 22LR magazines.

I have 2 kits and enjoy using them with copper plated HP/RN ammunition. They are especially great for training new shooters but oh boy, they sure are fun to shoot.

 

[CraigC]

Anything long enough for the .30M1 would also be long enough for the 9mmMag, 10mmMag, .44AutoMag or .45WinMag. All of which would be more interesting to me.

 

[C0untZer0]

For people who take a pass on a 9mm carbine and say "I wish they made it in 10mm" they're wishing for a more powerful round with greater range and you can wonder why they don't just get an M1 carbine. I think the reason is that they probably carry a 10mm handgun, have a lot of 10mm ammo already, and probably have a lot of 10mm magazines that they'd like to use in whatever 10mm carbine they do end up getting. So the M1 doesn't really appeal to those folks.

But there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with the 9mm for home defense or plinking at the range or to prepare for get-home or bug-out situations and the M1 doesn't really appeal to those folks either.

 

[CoalTrain49]

No but it is about why one would choose a 9mm/10mm/.45ACP over a .30M1 and the fact that bullet/load development for the .30 has been stagnant for decades is a relevant factor.

What's this?



What the relevant factor truly is, is the price of ammo, not bullet/load development. When the firearm becomes popular ammo prices drop. 30 carbine is a straight walled case with limited possibilities just like any straight walled case.

Granted, there isn't much of a market for 30 carbine ammo now but that could change just like some other out-of-date cartridges.

Sorry but the .30M1's time has passed.

They said that about the 45-70 also, another over-the-hill cartridge.

If Ruger built a PCC in 30 carbine I would be on that like a chicken on june bug. I don't want a 9mm carbine after shooting a 43 Inland. 30 carbine might be the ultimate PCC. If you've never shot one you should.

By the way, Ruger built a bunch of 45-70 rifles and a lot of other mfg's. still offer them. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a Ruger 30 carbine didn't hit the street in the next year. That would make a lot more sense than a 40 or 45.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

When it comes to converting a standard AR15 lower to 9mm, here is about the most affordable way to go.
https://www.deltateamtactical.com/T...ck-Mag-Adaptor-To-Shoot-9mm-In-Ar_p_6420.html

I like a dedicated lower for the AR platform . You can get them in 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm and 45 Auto. Joe Bob Outfitters has a few.
https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Articles.asp?Search=spartan&ID=301
When it comes to pistol caliber carbines there are many options. You can build your own on an AR platform or buy one already built. There are many manufactures that offer ARs in 9mm. When it comes to 40 S&W, 10mm and 45 Auto, there are not as many as the 9mm, but more the anything offered in 30 Carbine. This is also true when it comes to ammo. Now if the 30 Carbine was offered in more firearms, and the cost more reasonable, plenty of shooters would go for it.
Then you also need to look at the collectible side of the surplus M1 Carbines. In the 80's you could pick up one imported by Blue Sky for under $200. Today that same carbine sells for $600 plus. Some people are just not willing to throw their cherished M1 behind the seat of the truck.

 

[CraigC]

A cup and core bullet with a rubber insert? A single example??? I've tested those in SIMTEST and wasn't impressed. It's actually why I switched to HST's. Whether you agree or not, the .30's lack of innovation is a relevant factor. Is it the most important one? I don't know or really care.

The .45/70 has applications to virtually all big game hunting. The .30's place can never change. The comparison is irrelevant. And again, the .30M1 is not a pistol cartridge. People want a 9mm/10mm/.45ACP carbine because they ARE pistol cartridges.

 

[CoalTrain49]

And again, the .30M1 is not a pistol cartridge. People want a 9mm/10mm/.45ACP carbine because they ARE pistol cartridges.

Why, because you said so? It looks more like a pistol cartridge than 99% of the rifle cartridges out there. There are even some pistol cartridges that have a higher working pressure than a 30C. If what you say is true, nobody should be poking 44 mags in a rifle because it's a pistol cartridge, always has been. Does a cartridge always have to be one or the other. I don't think so. Has more to do with barrel length than anything else.

 

[CraigC]

Drop the straw man. Because no practical pistols chamber it or are able to due to its length. The Automag III was very large with a very long grip frame. Same for those chambering 9mmMag, 10mmMag, .44Mag, .44AutoMag, .45WinMag and .475Wildey. Do I really have to explain this?

Revolvers and revolver cartridges in leverguns is entirely different.

 

[kBob]

Guys knock it off before the Mods kill the thread, please.

Anyone else see back in the day the .30 carbine AR that Olympic was playing with for the Israeli police market? it used regular M1 carbine mags. The one I handled had about a 12 inch barrel and a CAR15 stock (hey there wasn't yet an M4 I don't think) No idea how it worked as in blowback DI or Piston or magic. Cool little gun though.

Some time back Shotgun News had a series on a guy making a 7.62x25 upper for an AR15 that used PPS43 mags. It was DI (IIRC the port was only 6 or 8 inches down stream) and I thought it rather a cool idea at the time.

Which one of you guys is going to custom build a new mag block for the Ruger PC to hold PPS43 mags and rebarrel the gun to 7.62 TOK?

Talk about a Chinese fire drill involving a Russian Race horse!

-kBob

 

[CoalTrain49]

Revolvers and revolver cartridges in leverguns is entirely different.

So are PCC's which is the topic at hand here. No cartridge length restrictions that I know of. Do you know of any?

 

[Crosshair]

So are PCC's which is the topic at hand here. No cartridge length restrictions that I know of. Do you know of any?

No, the topic at hand is autoloading PCCs and how they compare to the M1 Carbine.

 

[ThomasT]

I have only shot 5 rounds through an M-1 carbine and it was fun but not enough to form an opinion worth listening to. But I really want one of the new Inlands. And maybe someday I will buy one.

I do a Marlin model 9 camp carbine and really like shooting that little gun. I like it so much that the Ruger is on my radar. I also own a Hi-Point 9mm that my son has borrowed. been borrowed about 10 years now. I think its his now.

I like the 9mm carbine for all the reasons listed. My marlin takes the same mags as the S&W model 915 I own plus I have several spares including 3 20 round mags that fit both guns. The new Ruger is just as versitile as the Marlin. They are to me great survival type rifles. Enough power for SD. Good enough to kill deer. My buds 13 year old son killed his first deer with a Marlin 9mm. The deer ran 45 yards before dying and never made it out of sight.

I have a Marlin 357 that will do all the 30 carbine will do and then some so that base is covered. But I still want a 30 carbine. I wish H&R would have made a single shot Handi-Rifle in 30 carbine. A real American Rook & Rabbit rifle.

 

[Merle1]

I have only shot 5 rounds through an M-1 carbine and it was fun but not enough to form an opinion worth listening to. But I really want one of the new Inlands. And maybe someday I will buy one.

I do a Marlin model 9 camp carbine and really like shooting that little gun. I like it so much that the Ruger is on my radar. I also own a Hi-Point 9mm that my son has borrowed. been borrowed about 10 years now. I think its his now.

I like the 9mm carbine for all the reasons listed. My marlin takes the same mags as the S&W model 915 I own plus I have several spares including 3 20 round mags that fit both guns. The new Ruger is just as versitile as the Marlin. They are to me great survival type rifles. Enough power for SD. Good enough to kill deer. My buds 13 year old son killed his first deer with a Marlin 9mm. The deer ran 45 yards before dying and never made it out of sight.

I have a Marlin 357 that will do all the 30 carbine will do and then some so that base is covered. But I still want a 30 carbine. I wish H&R would have made a single shot Handi-Rifle in 30 carbine. A real American Rook & Rabbit rifle.

Perhaps you should consider a T/C Contender carbine, or pistol?

 

[CoalTrain49]

No, the topic at hand is autoloading PCCs and how they compare to the M1 Carbine.

I guess you have to include auto loading PCC's (available) if you are going to compare them to M1 carbines, No?

The title of the OP is
M1 Carbine vs new pistol caliber carbines

 

[bersaguy]

Guys, thanks for all the interest in the topic. My original point was that there is a lot of interest in these PCC's and a growing interest in a PCC offered in a more substantial caliber than 9mm. 10mm was what I saw cited pretty often. But it had seemed to me that 10mm or similar caliber would be a bit much for the blowback design of a Ruger PC or similar carbine. So a locked breech, handy carbine offered in an effective PD caliber, well I just seemed to me that just such a thing had been purpose built 70 years ago, and an old concept is new again. I am fortunate enough to have my father's Plainfield M1 Carbine (which runs perfectly), and frankly have been infatuated with it since I was a kid. I hadn't really considered the interchangeably of ammo and mags, or the relative cost of the platforms.
Fact is, though I have not yet reached my 40's (though they are fast approaching) I have what is probably an unreasonable affinity for outmoded technology. I guess I just like blue steel, walnut stocks, 1911s and 16ga shotguns.
I have an AR15 and a poly 9, and they function very well. But, there's the smile factor involved for me. I just get a bigger kick out of those old guns. Kinda like putting a 2018 Honda Accord up against a 1969 Camaro, the Honda will do it better faster and cheaper. But the smile factor dumping the clutch in a 69 SS
I suppose Camaros have points and condensers, carberatur adjustments and will rattle your teeth, and M1 Carbines have parts availability issues, expensive ammo and no ammo compatibility. But if I roll up to my local range with either one, I'd wager I'd leave with a bigger smile on my face

 

[NWPilgrim]

If you already have an M1 Carbine then I don't see the need for a pistol caliber carbine (PCC). Most of them are heavier than the M1. And a 15 round pistol magazine is much bulkier than an M1 mag.

HOWEVER, if you don't have an M1 Carbine but already have a pistol than a carbine in the same caliber makes sense.
> The M1 is not set up for optics as is. Most PCCs have a Picatinny rail or can easily have it installed. The M1 can easily install a scout positioned rail but more expensive and limited.

> .30 Carbine ammo is not plentiful or varied. You get FMJ or soft point; no HP or tipped or bonded. I think ammo manufacturers do a run of it every 2-3 years and when it runs out it is out for a long time. Same for bullets and cases. As a side note, the M1 is picky about ammo and you won't be having light target loads and power factor loads. 15 gr W292 and 110 gr bullet and not much variance from that.

> Carbine ammo is about twice the cost of 9mm Luger ammo

> Very few handguns were made to shoot the Carbine round, so the M1 requires its own ammo supply, not shared. Same with mags, they are proprietary and an additional cost compare to a PCC sharing mags with your pistol.

> The M1 carbine was made 75 years ago and most newer commercial ones seem to not be as reliable. Parts will eventually dry up and become more difficult and expensive to upgrade, repair and maintain.

> If you reload, those long narrow cases do not like to be jostled while in the press or they fall over easily spilling powder. One of my least favorite cases to reload.

Saying all that you might think I don't like the M1 carbine, but I love it and everyone in the family have big smiles when they shoot the Carbines. It is very light, handy, pretty darn accurate especially with a scout mounted red dot, low recoil and the short stock is also family friendly. Probably the best centerfire rifle for family fun.

 

[Speedo66]

Bring most PPC to the range along with an original M-1 Carbine and see which one gets more attention, or requests to try.

I will admit if I didn't have one I probably wouldn't buy one at the current prices, but thankfully I do and I really enjoy it.

Be nice if Ruger would chamber its new PCC in .30 Carbine, would certainly renew interest in the cartridge. Same for its Mini-14, while more expensive, a reliable gun would be great.

 

[Merle1]

Guys, thanks for all the interest in the topic. My original point was that there is a lot of interest in these PCC's and a growing interest in a PCC offered in a more substantial caliber than 9mm. 10mm was what I saw cited pretty often. But it had seemed to me that 10mm or similar caliber would be a bit much for the blowback design of a Ruger PC or similar carbine. So a locked breech, handy carbine offered in an effective PD caliber, well I just seemed to me that just such a thing had been purpose built 70 years ago, and an old concept is new again. I am fortunate enough to have my father's Plainfield M1 Carbine (which runs perfectly), and frankly have been infatuated with it since I was a kid. I hadn't really considered the interchangeably of ammo and mags, or the relative cost of the platforms.
Fact is, though I have not yet reached my 40's (though they are fast approaching) I have what is probably an unreasonable affinity for outmoded technology. I guess I just like blue steel, walnut stocks, 1911s and 16ga shotguns.
I have an AR15 and a poly 9, and they function very well. But, there's the smile factor involved for me. I just get a bigger kick out of those old guns. Kinda like putting a 2018 Honda Accord up against a 1969 Camaro, the Honda will do it better faster and cheaper. But the smile factor dumping the clutch in a 69 SS
I suppose Camaros have points and condensers, carberatur adjustments and will rattle your teeth, and M1 Carbines have parts availability issues, expensive ammo and no ammo compatibility. But if I roll up to my local range with either one, I'd wager I'd leave with a bigger smile on my face

Perhaps you don't know that Hi Point just introduced a blow back 10 mm carbine.

 

[Merle1]

If you already have an M1 Carbine then I don't see the need for a pistol caliber carbine (PCC). Most of them are heavier than the M1. And a 15 round pistol magazine is much bulkier than an M1 mag.

HOWEVER, if you don't have an M1 Carbine but already have a pistol than a carbine in the same caliber makes sense.
> The M1 is not set up for optics as is. Most PCCs have a Picatinny rail or can easily have it installed. The M1 can easily install a scout positioned rail but more expensive and limited.

> .30 Carbine ammo is not plentiful or varied. You get FMJ or soft point; no HP or tipped or bonded. I think ammo manufacturers do a run of it every 2-3 years and when it runs out it is out for a long time. Same for bullets and cases. As a side note, the M1 is picky about ammo and you won't be having light target loads and power factor loads. 15 gr W292 and 110 gr bullet and not much variance from that.

> Carbine ammo is about twice the cost of 9mm Luger ammo

> Very few handguns were made to shoot the Carbine round, so the M1 requires its own ammo supply, not shared. Same with mags, they are proprietary and an additional cost compare to a PCC sharing mags with your pistol.

> The M1 carbine was made 75 years ago and most newer commercial ones seem to not be as reliable. Parts will eventually dry up and become more difficult and expensive to upgrade, repair and maintain.

> If you reload, those long narrow cases do not like to be jostled while in the press or they fall over easily spilling powder. One of my least favorite cases to reload.

Saying all that you might think I don't like the M1 carbine, but I love it and everyone in the family have big smiles when they shoot the Carbines. It is very light, handy, pretty darn accurate especially with a scout mounted red dot, low recoil and the short stock is also family friendly. Probably the best centerfire rifle for family fun.

FYI; Winchester still has a 110 gr JHP

 

[Nuclear]

The more I read this thread, the more I want a handgun that looks like a Mauser C96 (AKA Broomhandle), is simpler / more modern in design, takes M1 Carbine mags and fires M1 Carbine rounds. With a really effective flash hider on the end of the barrel.

Now that I think of it, it's going to look like the Han Solo's blaster, especially if you mount optics on it.

 

[kBob]

For a bit there was a guy modifying M1 Carbines to use other ammo, up to one of the Super Duper .45 .44 Mag wanabees.

I think he concentrates on mounts now Le Something

A friend and fellow Carbinophile got one of the heavy caliber ones but it broke early on.

I believe that Chiappa was recently offering an M1 Carbine look alike that used Beretta mags to shoot 9x19mm and was actually a blow back rather than locked breech

What I wanted back in the day was something in .44 Auto Mag....just because. I thought something like the Mini-14 scaled up or XGI (or M14)scaled down to handle the .44 Auto Mag ( or even .357 Auto Mag) from a double feed mag. Fifteen or twenty round magazines would be plenty. Even considered a dedicated AR10 type CAR scaled to the round way before AR10 kits were remotely available. CAR/M6 butt might be rough being pushed against one's shoulder by Auto Mag though

A couple of friends and I even discussed over the scattered guts of a "donor" rifle the possibility of simply modifying the original Rugger .44 semi auto Carbine to take a box magazine (even if only an Auto Mag pistol mag in a Camp Carbine type set up, and this was before the camp carbine BTW) and moding the bolt face for the rimless .44 Auto Mag. Nothing came of it and the Ruger went back together and was out of the shop before next hunting season.

And yes, the name Thumper came to mind.

Of course some research was called for on the Auto Mag and shooting done.....man all that stuff happening in your hands and then you think that was nothing compared to the Mars pistols of a Century ago. A few rounds and you were sure a Carbine would be better suited for the round!

Oh last thing, found a picture of a bud shooting the M-16A1 with a 9x19 suppressed upper the USAF tested in the mid 1980s unfortunately the picture is pretty crappy. May see if I can digitalize it but seems pointless. Up shot was the USAF saw no need for a 9x19mm as long as there were still a few GAU Whatever they called the XM177 floating around. Same time period they were creating Airbase Ground Defense and were playing with a ground mount for the full auto 40mm that used the same ammo as the chin turret on a Cobra. Just could not get them interested in M102 howitzers. Three star in charge thought it would be cheaper to rely in AC130s than train and maintain a few light sections of 105s for deployment where ever. Once they get those wings on their chests they think airplanes is the answer to everything!

-kBob