9mm Steel Competition Load w/VV N320, advice needed

[Alex G]

Good morning everyone!

Looking for some recommendations for loading 124 grain RMR FMJ projectiles in 9mm for speed shooting competition, with VV N320.
Does anyone use this projectile/powder combination, and what powder charge have you found to be the most accurate? As a disclaimer, I AM working up my own loads, but would like to know where to expect a sweet spot based off of others experience.

More specific data below:

• Primary Pistol-HK VP9 Match W/Holosun 507C X2 ACSS Vulcan, 5.8” barrel, 9mm Luger. Two recoil springs available, (blue and red) so I can tune the gun to the load via recoil springs as well
• Current Load-124gr RMR FMJ over 5.3 grains of CFE Pistol powder (SOME LOAD SOURCES SHOW THIS AS OVER MAX. THIS IS MY DATA. DEVELOP YOUR OWN LOADS AT YOUR OWN RISK) and seated to 1.1425” OAL. I do use the heavier red-painted recoil spring for this load, which creates a recoil impulse that pushes, rather than a sharp snap. Cycle time is good, but muzzle rise is a challenge. This load has worked extremely well as a general purpose load, burns clean, is extremely accurate, (1.5” at 25 yd) and does just about everything well other than competition speed shoot. It is doable, but I know it’s not the best. (And the point of handloading is custom tuning those loads, which I actually enjoy!)
• Targets-Falling steel plates, and meeting PF is not required though I’d like to, and need enough powder to knock the plates consistently
• Projectiles-124 grain RMR FMJ (not plated). I have thousands of these to use
• Powder-VV N320 (acquired 4 lbs of it to test)

Goal- To develop a load that allows for optimum speed shooting (minimal muzzle rise and recoil) while having excellent accuracy and cycling reliability. (See note under primary pistol above) Utilizing the lighter recoil spring is not an issue, I plan to do that with this load.
See pictures below

 

[1911in9mm]

I don’t have experience with the RMR fmj in round nose. But I have shot quite a few of their Matchwinner 124’s and Precision Delta 124’s both V.1 and V.2 over N320. You shouldn’t have any problems formulating a solid recipe with your components. In my guns (mostly Sig) 4.3 grains with the PD V.2 is what I’ve settled on. Quite accurate in my guns and very tolerable recoil impulse. PD V.1’s at 1.1OAL and their V.2’s at 1.135. If I remember correctly the Matchwinners were at 1.095. All of those combinations performed best around 133 PF or slightly above for me.
Probably start at 4 grains and work up, but expect 4.2 to 4.3 to be what you settle on.

 

[Alex G]

I don’t have experience with the RMR fmj in round nose. But I have shot quite a few of their Matchwinner 124’s and Precision Delta 124’s both V.1 and V.2 over N320. You shouldn’t have any problems formulating a solid recipe with your components. In my guns (mostly Sig) 4.3 grains with the PD V.2 is what I’ve settled on. Quite accurate in my guns and very tolerable recoil impulse. PD V.1’s at 1.1OAL and their V.2’s at 1.135. If I remember correctly the Matchwinners were at 1.095. All of those combinations performed best around 133 PF or slightly above for me.
Probably start at 4 grains and work up, but expect 4.2 to 4.3 to be what you settle on.

That’s similar to what I’ve seen online. A lot of guys saying 4.1 to 4.2 is their sweet spot
Thanks for the input!

 

[Walkalong]

I use 3.9/4.0 in a standard non compensated pistol, so a tenth or two more sounds about right.

 

[Alex G]

I use 3.9/4.0 in a standard non compensated pistol, so a tenth or two more sounds about right.

Good to know! What are you seeing velocity-wise?

 

[lordpaxman]

My competition loads do have to make minor, and I worked up the RMR 124 FPMW at 1.120”, 4.4gr N320 to make comfortable PF (130-132), that was out of a p226. It’s also loaded on a progressive with mixed HS brass. That’s one of the reasons I shoot for 130ish PF so no single round will drop below 125. That’s too much sphincter tightening on a chrono stage.
If you’re shooting outlaw steel, you could drop that considerably. I’ve found N320 to be extremely well behaved, quite linear within the published data both WRT charge weight and COL. During load workup I had that same bullet at 1.155”, 4.0gr N320 at PF 118. I didn’t pursue downloading as I need to make minor.
Even though you don’t need to make minor, you may want to consider it. Once you get hooked in the competition games, there’s no telling if you’re going to be in one that demands it.
Steel will fall with very light loads. Flat points may help transfer that energy more efficiently on steel. I realize you have RN, you may want to try a few FPMW just to see what COL and feeding is like.
If your heavier spring cycles reliably, you may see less muzzle rise than with the lighter spring. MantisX has a recoilometer that can show how fast and far this is. Also, in steel, where you’re not double tapping, use the muzzle rise/fall to transition to the next target, that saves a lot of time. Good luck, and if you get a chance check out Wallum Lake in RI, very fun!

 

[Walkalong]

Good to know! What are you seeing velocity-wise?

1050ish with a plated 124 from a 5” 1911

 

[n2omike]

I may be lost here... but you say you don't have to knock the steel targets down, just hit them?

If this is the case, I would use the guns lightest recoil spring and find a LIGHT load that cycles reliably... especially since you said muzzle rise is an issue.

All of the guys in competitive speed gun competitions use light loads and weak recoil springs. Almost like shooting a .22lr... really fast/accurate follow up shots.

 

[jmorris]

My steel loads are not my most accurate but the discipline doesn’t require much in terms of target size and distance. Keeping the gun flat and focusing on transitions helped me the most. I use heavy bullets (147’s) and small charges of fast powders (3.1 N310 or 3.2 of N320).

 

[Alex G]

My competition loads do have to make minor, and I worked up the RMR 124 FPMW at 1.120”, 4.4gr N320 to make comfortable PF (130-132), that was out of a p226. It’s also loaded on a progressive with mixed HS brass. That’s one of the reasons I shoot for 130ish PF so no single round will drop below 125. That’s too much sphincter tightening on a chrono stage.
If you’re shooting outlaw steel, you could drop that considerably. I’ve found N320 to be extremely well behaved, quite linear within the published data both WRT charge weight and COL. During load workup I had that same bullet at 1.155”, 4.0gr N320 at PF 118. I didn’t pursue downloading as I need to make minor.
Even though you don’t need to make minor, you may want to consider it. Once you get hooked in the competition games, there’s no telling if you’re going to be in one that demands it.
Steel will fall with very light loads. Flat points may help transfer that energy more efficiently on steel. I realize you have RN, you may want to try a few FPMW just to see what COL and feeding is like.
If your heavier spring cycles reliably, you may see less muzzle rise than with the lighter spring. MantisX has a recoilometer that can show how fast and far this is. Also, in steel, where you’re not double tapping, use the muzzle rise/fall to transition to the next target, that saves a lot of time. Good luck, and if you get a chance check out Wallum Lake in RI, very fun!

Good to know! I am planning on setting them up to meet minor PF, like you said if I get the chance to compete in the true competitive games like USPSA and IPSC. As for using the recoil to transition to the next target, I started doing that and it helps a ton!
For the RMR 124 FPMW’s, I tried some with CFE pistol as well as some with AA#5 and they didn’t group particularly well at any of the powder range. Once I get the N320 in I may give them a shot again to see if I can get better groups.

 

[Alex G]

I may be lost here... but you say you don't have to knock the steel targets down, just hit them?

If this is the case, I would use the guns lightest recoil spring and find a LIGHT load that cycles reliably... especially since you said muzzle rise is an issue.

All of the guys in competitive speed gun competitions use light loads and weak recoil springs. Almost like shooting a .22lr... really fast/accurate follow up shots.

Nope, they do technically have to go down. The main stage of the course is a 6-plate plate rack, which I have to clear first.

 

[Alex G]

My steel loads are not my most accurate but the discipline doesn’t require much in terms of target size and distance. Keeping the gun flat and focusing on transitions helped me the most. I use heavy bullets (147’s) and small charges of fast powders (3.1 N310 or 3.2 of N320).

Yup, that’s what I need to focus in on for this load. Accuracy as best as I can (definitely 2” or less at 25yd bc I know the pistol is capable of it) but optimizing that velocity and recoil impulse

 

[n2omike]

Nope, they do technically have to go down. The main stage of the course is a 6-plate plate rack, which I have to clear first.

Heavier bullets are best when it comes to pushing plates over. Momentum wins over energy. It's also easier to get good case pressure with smaller powder charges when using heavier bullets.

RMR has very affordable 147 grain projectiles as well. If you're already loaded up on 124's, they will work fine... but you may want to keep your mind open to trying the heavier bullets to see how those work.

Good Luck

 

[lordpaxman]

RMR has very affordable 147 grain projectiles as well. If you're already loaded up on 124's, they will work fine... but you may want to keep your mind open to trying the heavier bullets to see how those work.

I’ll second that. While I have a 124gr competition load, I normally shoot a 147gr. RMR 147gr FPMW, 1.120”, 3.6gr N320, PF 130. About the same charge using Sport Pistol. Experiment a little, you may want to try a coated 147gr, like Blue Bullets .356 RN (special profile). That brings the Sport Pistol charge down to 3.0 gr to make minor. Good luck.

 

[Alex G]

Thanks guys! Will look at picking up some 147’s to try next time I put in an order with RMR, as well. Y’all are so much more helpful over here than in the Reddit reloading forum. Over there you ask a simple question and get 20 people who look down at you and think you’re stupid. Over here y’all are helpful and professional.
Cheers!

 

[n2omike]

Y’all are so much more helpful over here than in the Reddit reloading forum. Over there you ask a simple question and get 20 people who look down at you and think you’re stupid. Over here y’all are helpful and professional.

Facebook groups are the WORST. I'm a member of some automotive groups... Someone can ask a question, and it's like friggin' KINDERGARTEN. Immediately, there are 20 people standing up waving their hands, screaming out wrong answers and misinformation... while the 2-3 people who actually know what they are talking about are drowned out by all the noise!

Forums like this one are more controlled, and idiot loud mouths will get a brisk squirt of cold water to the face and learn to listen before they talk. This is extremely evident in automotive/racing groups and forums. Unfortunately, it seems things are moving more towards Facebook groups more and more.

Sorry for the long response to your post. VERY thankful this place is still going strong!!!

 

[lordpaxman]

Y’all are so much more helpful over here than in the Reddit reloading forum.

What’s Reddit?

 

[Alex G]

What’s Reddit?

That’s about how I’m feeling haha

Facebook groups are the WORST. I'm a member of some automotive groups... Someone can ask a question, and it's like friggin' KINDERGARTEN. Immediately, there are 20 people standing up waving their hands, screaming out wrong answers and misinformation... while the 2-3 people who actually know what they are talking about are drowned out by all the noise!

Forums like this one are more controlled, and idiot loud mouths will get a brisk squirt of cold water to the face and learn to listen before they talk. This is extremely evident in automotive/racing groups and forums. Unfortunately, it seems things are moving more towards Facebook groups more and more.

Sorry for the long response to your post. VERY thankful this place is still going strong!!!

agreed! There’s still a good bit of civility over here thankfully

 

[Alex G]

So, I was able to get out this morning to test the loads. Results are interesting, larger SD’s and ES’s than I’d anticipated, with not much variance in average velocity between strings. Also, the first shot of each group was 30-70 FPS slower than the rest of the string. I attributed this possibly to the 15 degree (F) temps outside and a cold gun, but I’m not sure. Groups were decent but not great, (2-4” at 25yd) and recoil was downright pleasant. I also shot some freestanding, and the one that grouped and felt the best was the A3 group. What impressed me the most was how clean the brass was, no soot smearing, and evidence of an excellent gas seal, so that’s a plus.
I will include the raw chrono data below, as well as a photo of my reloading logbook entry. Any advice?

Set: 175
Created: 03/12/22 09:55
Description: A1
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 124.00
Temp: N/A °F
BP: N/A inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1024 288.76 126.98
9 1001 275.93 124.12
8 1047 301.88 129.83
7 1092 328.38 135.41
6 1057 307.67 131.07
5 1044 300.15 129.46
4 1032 293.29 127.97
3 1062 310.59 131.69
2 1044 300.15 129.46
1 1003 277.04 124.37
Average: 1040.6 FPS
SD: 27.4 FPS
Min: 1001 FPS
Max: 1092 FPS
Spread: 91 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 1041 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 176
Created: 03/12/22 10:00
Description: A2
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 124.00
Temp: N/A °F
BP: N/A inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1053 305.35 130.57
9 1058 308.25 131.19
8 1089 326.58 135.04
7 1035 295.00 128.34
6 1004 277.59 124.50
5 1065 312.35 132.06
4 1052 304.77 130.45
3 1014 283.15 125.74
2 1048 302.45 129.95
1 1033 293.86 128.09
Average: 1045.1 FPS
SD: 24.7 FPS
Min: 1004 FPS
Max: 1089 FPS
Spread: 85 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 1046 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 177
Created: 03/12/22 10:04
Description: A3
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 124.00
Temp: N/A °F
BP: N/A inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1057 307.67 131.07
9 1060 309.42 131.44
8 1030 292.15 127.72
7 1058 308.25 131.19
6 1068 314.11 132.43
5 1070 315.29 132.68
4 1059 308.84 131.32
3 1069 314.70 132.56
2 1029 291.59 127.60
1 998 274.28 123.75
Average: 1049.8 FPS
SD: 23.4 FPS
Min: 998 FPS
Max: 1070 FPS
Spread: 72 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 1051 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 178
Created: 03/12/22 10:08
Description: A4
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 124.00
Temp: N/A °F
BP: N/A inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1046 301.30 129.70
9 1086 324.79 134.66
8 1081 321.80 134.04
7 1071 315.88 132.80
6 1058 308.25 131.19
5 1083 322.99 134.29
4 1096 330.79 135.90
3 1086 324.79 134.66
2 1088 325.98 134.91
1 1055 306.51 130.82
Average: 1075.0 FPS
SD: 16.7 FPS
Min: 1046 FPS
Max: 1096 FPS
Spread: 50 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 1076 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------

 

[AzShooter1]

My Steel Challenge load for 9 mm was 3.5 grains of VV 320 with a 135 grain bullet. It was a powder puff load but worked reliably. Power factor was also good enough for USPSA at 132.

 

[Alex G]

Also worth noting that the powder charges were thrown on a Redding #3-BR powder measure with the pistol rotor installed. It’s easily consistent to the 10th of a grain, and I’d say even down to 2 hundredths of a grain. (After getting the N320 I did some powder measure tests to see how accurately it would measure)

 

[lordpaxman]

Thanks for the range report. It’s good to see objective data with the load work up. I see similar results with N320, although I need a couple tenths more than you. That could be due to a looser chamber or barrel or just the batch of powder I have. I need to chrono my P320 with these 124’s, prior data posted was with a P226, but I typically am shooting a 147.
While you point out your first round was slower, there are other rounds in the string just as slow. I throw my test load charges with a measure, but then weigh and adjust each one to insure they’re as close to the test weight as possible. n320 measures really well for me, but there are +/- variations, and I’ve been “confused” in the past when I haven’t done that and have seen data where another + .1gr of powder yields the same or slower Vavg. I use the same HS when doing load workup, but, have seen mixed HS yield good SDs as well.
If I had 2-4” groups at 25 yards I’d have a different adjective than “decent” . If the A3 load works for you, load up enough for your first match and see how they do. Good luck!

 

[Alex G]

Thanks for the range report. It’s good to see objective data with the load work up. I see similar results with N320, although I need a couple tenths more than you. That could be due to a looser chamber or barrel or just the batch of powder I have. I need to chrono my P320 with these 124’s, prior data posted was with a P226, but I typically am shooting a 147.
While you point out your first round was slower, there are other rounds in the string just as slow. I throw my test load charges with a measure, but then weigh and adjust each one to insure they’re as close to the test weight as possible. n320 measures really well for me, but there are +/- variations, and I’ve been “confused” in the past when I haven’t done that and have seen data where another + .1gr of powder yields the same or slower Vavg. I use the same HS when doing load workup, but, have seen mixed HS yield good SDs as well.
If I had 2-4” groups at 25 yards I’d have a different adjective than “decent” . If the A3 load works for you, load up enough for your first match and see how they do. Good luck!

thanks! As for the extra velocity, they are coming out of the VP9 Match, which utilizes a stepped chamber for a bit tighter gas seal, a 5.8” barrel, and polygonal rifling. That would likely be my guess as to the additional velocity.

As for headstamps, I purposefully left it mixed, as that’s what I would be doing when loading the range ammo and wanted to keep it consistent. (Although sorting by HS definitely has its advantages for sure)

As to the groups, my main full-power load in the main post does give 1.5-2” groups at 25, and that’s been kind of my benchmark as far as the accuracy capability goes because I know the gun and projectiles can do it. Now whether I can is a whole different matter, just trying to eliminate as many variables for error as possible.

As far as the load up, I think I may load 1-2 hundred of both A3 and A4 and take them out to the range prior to the match, then use whichever one performs best. The recoil with N320 is definitely less than my CFE load, and the cases are much cleaner as well. Overall I’m looking forward to using this new powder!

 

[Alex G]

Well guys, it worked! I ended up going with A4, as it had the most natural recoil impulse while still being mild and controllable. I also ended up running it with the lighter recoil spring, and taking first place in our steel shoot league for that night! Shooting it side by side with my general purpose load has lead me to believe that a custom tuned load such as that in the hands of a decent shot can make a large difference. Thanks again for all the help!