9mm v.s. 38 Super

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Kuyong_Chuin

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I was sorting through my brass and ran across an old all in the mix that ended up being a 38 Super. It got me looking at the data for that round and since it uses the same bullet as the 9mm I started comparing the two and got very confused about something I wish someone would explain to me. You have two rounds that use the same bullets and the same powders but ones starting load is at or a little over the max of the other. What is confusing me is how when loaded with the same 115 grain XTP bullet and the same powder how is it that the 38 Super using more powder is just a little faster or even slower using more powder. Example: 9mm 115 grain XTP bullet loaded to max with 6.0 grains of Longshot has a listed speed of 1203. Using the same bullet and powder but loading the starting load for the 38 Super of 6.5 grains has a listed speed of 1214 only a 11fps increase for 0.5 grain increase in powder. Using HS6 it gets even worse, 9mm loaded max load of 7.0 grains list speed of 1234, 38 Super starting load of 7.8 grains list speed of 1212 fps. This makes no since to me, how can you use the same powder and bullet but more of it and it get slower. Unless it is because of the longer case there is not as much pressure even using more powder to push the bullet. Someone please enlighten me if it is just because of the longer case or something else is going on. Also I like to know the pros and cons of the two rounds.
 
ReloaderFred +2
Look at the high end loads for 38 Super.

9mm Luger can't get there with the smaller case volume without BIG increases in pressure and stronger OPEN class pistols to shoot them safely.
I've been considering this move. Just the money is holding me back.:-(
 
The 38 Automatic and 38 Super Automatic are identical cases with the latter having a heavier charge.

The 9mm Parabellum (9x19 Luger) has a case length of .754" where the 38 Super comes in at .900" so the 38 Super exceeds the 9mm Parabellum by about .146". Seating a 115 grain Hornady XTP (.355 diameter) at the cannelure in each case the 38 Super will have more case volume for the charge. So for an identical charge of the same propellant the 9mm Parabellum will develop the higher pressure. Pretty much as you called it and what Reloader Fred said.

While the 9mm Parabellum was popular in Europe since its inception it was not all that popular in the US till after WW II. Here in the US the 38 Super was at one time the cartridge. I love 1911 guns chambered in it. There were also a good number of countries that banned handguns in military chamberings leaving a nice niche for the 38 Super. I think among them on this side of the pond was Mexico and Canada. Not 100% on that.

Pros and Cons? Really none that come to mind as they are both good cartridges considering their era. Today the 9mm Parabellum would be the less expensive and more popular. That is all I can think of. You can push the 38 super nicely in a well built 1911 frame exceeding the 9mm Parabellum I think.

Ron
 
In my 38 Supers I can push a 115 grain bullet over 1600 fps. Factory ammo and most load data keeps the pressure a lot lower on the Supers since there are a lot of old guns out there with unsupported chambers that could blow a case at higher pressures. A modern gun with a supported chamber can be loaded a lot hotter.

The 9mm has a smaller case capacity, so when loaded to the same pressure it is going to be quite a bit less powerful than the 38 Super.
 
Kuyong_Chuin said:
Also I like to know the pros and cons of the two rounds.
Click to expand...

The 38 Super was never picked up as a military round, hence its popularity has been limited.

One of the things that kept it around was that it was not a military round. Some countries do not permit their residence to own and use cartridges that have been used by any military.

38 Super was kind of the 357 Magnum of its day until the 357 Magnum was introduced.

Up until the 1980s-1990s, accuracy of the 38 Super was lackluster because it head spaced on its semi-rim. By the way, the 38 Super is a semi-rimmed case, not rimless like the 9x19.

Accuracy was greatly improved when manufacturers made barrels that head spaced on the case mouth.

There is another round, 38 ACP, whose case dimensions are identical to 38 Super. Its performance is more in line with 9x19, maybe a bit less. It is not safe to fire 38 Super in a 38 ACP hand gun.

38 Super cases are nominally the same length as 45 ACP so guns that chamber 38 Super tend to have a longer magazine well as the 9x19 magazine well.

That's all that I can think of a the moment.

Hope this helps.
 
Case length & case capacity.

Set a 9mm and a .38 Super case side by side on a table and stare at them for a while, and the answer to your question will appear right in front of your eyes!

rc
 
Also, bear in mind that smokeless powder burns faster/better under higher pressure. So if you start with a smaller volume, the pressure rises faster, making the powder burn faster/better, making the pressure rise faster... you get the picture. So the same powder under the same bullet, but in a smaller cartridge should generate more pressure and velocity.
 
So far very good information guys. I do know that if you have a Government Model 1911 in 38 Super, J&G sales has a barrel change kit so it will fire the 7.62 x 25 round as well for $190. I am very seriously thinking about saving up for a 1911 since I like my brothers which is in 45 acp but I have not decided on a caliber yet. I do know it will not be the 45 ACP since I can shoot his when ever I want. Since I am now learning more about the 38 Super it is coming down to getting a 10mm or the 38 Super and the conversation kit.
 
The 7.62x25 cartridge is too long to fit in a 1911 magazine & grip if you want a full magazine.
And a 1911's slide travel is marginal at best to get one out of the ejection port.

Waste your money if you want.
Just don't say somebody didn't warn you.

The .45 ACP, and the .38 Super were both designed from the get-go to Feed, Fire, and Function Freely in the 1911.
But they use different slides, ejectors, and frame feed ramp cuts.

The 9mm and 7.62x25 weren't designed for the 1911.
Ones too short, and the other ones too long.

Both can be made to work.
But it's not nearly as simple as dropping in a J&G 7.62x25 barrel!!

rc
 
Looking at the data, and I don't see what you are describing? I picked my powder of choice, Longshot, and for 9mm with a 115 gr. GDHP the max charge is 6.0 with published velocity at 1203 fps. The 38 super - 115 gr. XTP, 7.1 grs. of Longshot published velocity is 1303 fps.. I consider 1.1 grs. more powder and an increase in velocity of 102 fps from a handgun, as pretty significant.

But one must also consider that the 9mm case is smaller, so it takes less powder to reach similar pressures of 38 super. 38 super case is larger, so it takes more powder to produce similar pressures to 9mm. As you range up to heavier 147 gr. bullets, the 38 super holds onto and produces significantly better velocity than the 9mm, probably due to the larger case capacity.

GS
 
I have a 1911 in .38 Super that I also have a 9MM barrel for. I have seen the J&G barrel, but have not tried it for the feeding issues written about. Some say it feeds OK if you download the mags. The "cheap" surplus ammo angle is not as alluring as it once was either. I am very happy with shooting 9MM and .38 Super from my 1911.
 
Walkalong said:
I have a 1911 in .38 Super that I also have a 9MM barrel for. I have seen the J&G barrel, but have not tried it for the feeding issues written about. Some say it feeds OK if you download the mags. The "cheap" surplus ammo angle is not as alluring as it once was either. I am very happy with shooting 9MM and .38 Super from my 1911.
Click to expand...
After RC said something I started reading the reviews closer and would pass on the conversion kit, besides I saw I could buy another gun that was made to fire the 7.62x25 round for cheaper than the kit cost. Not counting all the work that would have to be done on it to get it properly fit to your 1911 and getting better bushing since the ones in the kit in several reviewers words "they suck".

I wonder if I got one in 10mm if I could get other conversions for it easily. Like one 1911 gun but different kits to be able to fire 22LR, 9mm, 38 Super, and 40 S&W depending on my mood or need at the time.
 
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For switch caliber handguns, the Witnesses are the easiest to change from one caliber to the next. They're made by Tanfoglio, in Italy, and imported by EAA. I've got them in .22 LR, 9x19, 9x21, 9x23, 9x25 Dillon, 357 Sig, .38 Super, .40 S&W, 10mm, .41 AE and .45 acp. Changing calibers is simply changing the top end and magazine.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
ReloaderFred said:
For switch caliber handguns, the Witnesses are the easiest to change from one caliber to the next. They're made by Tanfoglio, in Italy, and imported by EAA. I've got them in .22 LR, 9x19, 9x21, 9x23, 9x25 Dillon, 357 Sig, .38 Super, .40 S&W, 10mm, .41 AE and .45 acp. Changing calibers is simply changing the top end and magazine.

Hope this helps.

Fred
Click to expand...
Since I like the witness too that might be an option. Thanks
 
I have a Commander XSE in .38 Super. I got a 9mm barrel and a couple of 9mm mags and it works great. Didn't have to buy new springs, barrel required minor fitting, etc.

It's a lot less fun in 9mm but it is cheaper to shoot.
 
I got a 9mm Commander a while back, then bought a 38 Super BarSto barrel for it. I seldom put the 9mm back in. The Super is very easy to reload, even easier than 45 ACP. As a bonus the Super and 45 both use the same HP38 powder charge. I don't even have to adjust my powder measure.
The change from 9 to 38 only involves the barrel, bushing, and link and the magazines. And I have had no trouble using my 38 mags for 9mm, but, of course the 38's will not fit in the 9mm mags.
Once I put a 22 conversion unit on a 1911 lower I have not changed it back to 45 either.
I also have a Talo 38 Super LW Commander. Probably my favorite gun to shoot.
 
While somewhat off the topic this thread got me to thinking about a cartridge developed in the early 60s by a fellow named Bo Clerke. The cartridge was known as the .38/.45 Clerke or the .45/.38 Clerke and a few other names.

It's no secret that in developing the .357 Sig all they did was neck down a .40 S&W to a .357. Clerke necked down a .45 ACP to .357. The cool part was you would get a 38 Super 1911 barrel and reamers from Clymer and ream the barrel for the new cartridge. Heck, you already have a .357 barrel with the .38 Super. Since the case is starting out as .45 ACP the magazine is not a problem at all. I know as of the early 90s that RCBS was still offering sizing and loading dies for making the things.

The only problem was while necking down a .40 S&W to create the .357 Sig isn't a big change necking down a .45 ACP to .357 is rough on the brass. I guess you were good for around 3 or 4 hand loadings before the case necks would crack.

It shows up in the Wiki:

It is essentially a .45 ACP case, necked down to .357, resulting in a cartridge similar in form to the earlier .30 Parabellum and .30 Mauser cartridges. It was created to be a low recoil target cartridge that would function reliably with multiple bullet types, FMJ to cast lead wadcutters without the feeding problems that straight walled pistol rounds sometimes exhibit. The cartridge can be used in standard .45 ACP magazines.

The .38 Casull followed the same formula as the .38/.45 Clerke, but with thicker case walls as in the .45 Winchester Magnum.
Click to expand...

I was going to build one at one time but before I did someone bought the 1911 38 Super barrel I had. It was an easy conversion and just a matter of changing the 1911 barrels in and out.

Can't remember who but at one time I did see another forum member mention the round. Maybe I should renew my interest 20 years later and build one. :)

Ron
 
In 1911 style pistols, the capacity is normally 9 rounds in the magazine. In the Witness, either 16 or 17 rounds in the magazine, depending whether you're using EOM or Meg-Gar magazines.

I recently bought a new to me Witness Elite Match in .38 Super and when I took it to the range, the very first shot at 25 yards was a dead center X. It's the most accurate semi-auto pistol I own.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
I have a 38/45 Clerke, an M1911 with a Bar-Sto barrel. Everything else is from a 45 ACP.

As I understand, the round was originally developed for bulleye shooters so that they could shoot the same frame as the 45 stage just by changing the top end. It is supposed to feed wadcutters but I could never get mine to work and did not put much effort into the trial.

But with 130 grain round nose, I could get near 38 Super performance.

I have a barrel, a reamer, and gauges and some day will build another 38/45. One draw back, I have heard that one needs to make the hood wider, the same width as a 45 ACP barrel. Fortunately, I have the equipment for that.

Fun cartridge.
 
cfullgraf said:
I have a 38/45 Clerke, an M1911 with a Bar-Sto barrel. Everything else is from a 45 ACP.

As I understand, the round was originally developed for bulleye shooters so that they could shoot the same frame as the 45 stage just by changing the top end. It is supposed to feed wadcutters but I could never get mine to work and did not put much effort into the trial.

But with 130 grain round nose, I could get near 38 Super performance.

I have a barrel, a reamer, and gauges and some day will build another 38/45. One draw back, I have heard that one needs to make the hood wider, the same width as a 45 ACP barrel. Fortunately, I have the equipment for that.

Fun cartridge.
Click to expand...
That's it, I believe it was you Chuck who mentioned it at some point in the past. Yeah, I may just do it as a project of sorts.

Ron
 
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