9MM vs .38 Special

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Kentucky Rifle

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Kentucky is kinda wet & muddy now so I've been testing out my new Kahr MK9 on several things out in the woods. I figured that 9MM was about equal to .38 Special. Nope. I think 9MM is a little better. I was surprised many times. What is it? Better designed bullet? More modern? The stumps, hillsides, and even an old washing machine show that the 9MM has more... ahhh..~thump~ than the .38 Specials.:) (From a snubbie, at least.)

KR
 
.38 specials out of a snubbie are wimpy energy-wise, the 9mms probably have at least one hundred foot-pounds more kenetic energy.
 
The 9mm gets a little more steam out of short barrels, due to the shorter and more efficient case design. The velocity loss out of a short tube is less drastic than the velocity loss of .38 Special out of a snubby.

The .38 Special moves slower, but has the dvantage of being able to throw heavier bullets.

Overall, I prefer the 9mm in subcompact guns, but the .38 Special is a viable and time-honored option.
 
I agree.

Remember that the .38 special was designed as a black powder cartridge.
The 9mm offers a more efficient combustion chamber and, in pistols, the lack of a flash gap.

I used to load .38 Short Colt cases with 9mm loads for my Python because that way I could stack 2 seedloaders on top of each other in my duty pouch. :D
 
I think the verdict is out. Regarding the .38spl vs. the 9mm, the 9mm is clearly the more powerful ammo especially in +P. All the ballistic tests seem to prove that out. Dang, I wish I had bought me a 9mm SP101 when they were available!
 
I am possibly suffering incipient onset of adult senility, but I think I saw some ballistics info at one point that showed the 9x19 out of a S&W 940 (J-frame) being quite close to a .357 Mag out of a 2" J-frame. Whether it's the powder used or the case design, or something else, I don't remember.
 
That's right KR.

SAAMI pressures for:
9mm 35,000
9mm+P 38,500
.38 Spc. 17,000
.38 +P 18,500

My 940 is much more comparable to a .357 Mag 340 than a .38 342 and you can feel the difference when you shoot it.

RBCD
9mm Tactical 2300 fps
.38 Tactical 1850 fps
both with 50gr bullets, thought the 9mm is out of a 4" barrel rather than a 2".
 
In terms of raw energy, you bet, the 9mm+P beats the 38+P, esp. if they're both short-tube. Only once you throw the 38+P out of a 6" tube does it catch up.

But that's not the whole story, I don't think. You can design the projectile on a 38 with no thought towards such things as "feed ramps" :). The classic 158+P lead hollowpoint based on a Keith semi-wadcutter design would be a freakshow of a feed problem in slideguns. 1911 raceguns have to be specially tuned for something similar and even then, full reliability to "combat levels" isn't a factor.

The 130+P Winchester Supreme 38 is another example of a monster hollowpoint cavity that would be highly problematic in slideguns.

I would submit that these designs partially make up for the energy difference and have left the 38+P a viable old warhorse today, even in snubbies.
 
Believe your own experience.

The 9mm is better in external ballistics and (ahem) terminal

I just switched pocket guns from the S&W 64 in .38 to the Kahr MK9 Elite 98 and I SO MUCH prefer it
 
I think this is pretty much a given. You can go to the data section of a powder manufacturer and see that given equal bullet weights, the 9mm has a little more velocity than a .38 Special in common loads. My own chrono tests have also shown that the .38 Special makes great strides with barrel length where the 9mm only makes comparitively small velocity gains with barrel length. My Kel-Tec P11 doesn't shoot as fast as a 5" Ruger P89, but it is pretty close. But there is a major jump in velocity when going from a 2" .38 to a 4" .38.
 
does going from a 2" to 3" barrell in a .38 make much diff?

My Kel-Tec P11 doesn't shoot as fast as a 5" Ruger P89, but it is pretty close. But there is a major jump in velocity when going from a 2" .38 to a 4" .38.

Does going from a 2" to 3" barrell in a .38 make much difference in velocity?
 
Domzilla, it's not so much a difference in velocity as that it pushes the bullet into a more favorable performance envelope for expansion. Most .38 2"-barreled snubbies shoot +P rounds at 800-850 fps. This is very marginal for expansion, and if the hollow point of the bullet gets plugged with clothing material, expansion may be limited or non-existent. A 4" barrel gives an extra 150-200 fps to that load, and the additional velocity means that the bullet will hit harder, forcing more material into the hollow point, and promoting expansion.

You can see the same thing at work in the famous .357 Magnum 125gr. hollowpoint, traditionally doing about 1,400 fps out of a 4" barrel. At the time this load rose to prominence, in the late '70's and early '80's, it did NOT have a particularly good or efficient hollowpoint bullet. However, it had so much velocity that even a not-so-good hollowpoint was very likely to undergo explosive expansion, and even fragmentation. It built its reputation on its velocity. Today, with much better designs in hollowpoint bullets, a 9mm. shooting a 124gr. +P hollowpoint will produce similar bullet performance on target, even though its round is moving a good 200 fps or more slower than the famous .357 Magnum equivalent. Back in the '70's or '80's, the 9mm. had a miserable reputation as a "stopper" compared to the .357 Magnum - but that's changed...

In .38 Special, the newer loads designed specifically for snubbies, like the Winchester 130gr. SXT JHP, have very good performance indeed, even at a velocity of 800-850 fps. They're streets ahead of older-generation loads, even the good ones like the classic "FBI load" of a 158gr. LSWCHP at +P velocities. However, push the FBI load out of a 4" barreled revolver, and its performance improves to match that of the newer-technology rounds shot from snubbies.
 
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I don't know, I don't own a 3" .38 to check it out with, but I am sure it is fairly substantial.
As was noted above, the 9mm cartridge is very efficent and works pretty much up to it's full potential out of a handgun.
Check out this thread that gives some good real world data on the 9mm. It also has info on .38 Special and .357 mag but nothing out of a real short barrel. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45283&highlight=Chrono
I will add some chrono data from an SP101 to the thread right now. I realize that the SP101 loads are max .357 loads, but I think you would get similar velocity jumps with a .38 Special.
 
38 is much closer to .380 Auto than it is to 9mm Luger...
That all depends on which .38 load you are referring to. There are several, many even, .38 special loads that by far surpass the .380 and surpass some 9mm.

Don't get me wrong I actually like the .380 and have carried it often.

But if you want to get down to my dog is better than your dog, try the .38 Super. Both that I have owned would feed and function 100% with 158gr lead SWC. That big 45 designed feed ramp in a Commander does a lot to ensure that .38 Super feeds well. And a properly loaded .38 Super WILL give you noticably more thump of the terminal end than any 9mm.
 
"That all depends on which .38 load you are referring to. There are several, many even, .38 special loads that by far surpass the .380 and surpass some 9mm."

From a longer tube gun...yep, youre right.

But comparing "common CCW guns" Example a .380 with a 3-3 1/2" barrel and a .38 Snub....I dont think its so true....both are lucky to have 200 FPE. The delivery system are opposites. Light and fast, VS Heavy and slow.....


"But if you want to get down to my dog is better than your dog, try the .38 Super. Both that I have owned would feed and function 100% with 158gr lead SWC. That big 45 designed feed ramp in a Commander does a lot to ensure that .38 Super feeds well. And a properly loaded .38 Super WILL give you noticably more thump of the terminal end than any 9mm."

My dog vs your dog, again yep. True if your reloading, not comparing apples to apples. Most FACTORY 38 Super loads are very close to 9mm +P & +P+ loads in their data.
So....off the shelf stuff...not that different ......

Shoot well.
 
"That all depends on which .38 load you are referring to."

Yes it does. People love to make gross generalizations which don't really convey any useable information. I can shoot loads out of a .38 Special starting with Speer plastic bullets, Bull-X rubber bullets or wax and move on up to bullets weighing 200 grains. I have a load for the .38 Special that gives you a 170 grain Keith bullet at 1100 fps out of a 2" barrel.

There are loads out there in .38 Special that are close to those of a .380. There are also loads out there that are close to the 9mm Luger cartridge. We can't just lump the whole thing together and you can't just talk about what they have down at Wal Mart either.
 
Fired in a .357 chamber, .38 spl cases can be "long loaded" to deliver magnum velocities.

I never felt under powered with either.


John
 
.38spl in a 3" K frame I have used for a long time . As a CCW and just out and about in the woods , down on the farm. 158 gr LWSC or LSWC HP, 125 gr STHP, just loads I use( d) a lot. Never felt undergunned, have taken a fair share of critters ( rabid dogs, small game, finish shot on deer). I like the old K frames, especially in 3". Triggers are smooth and crisp.

My favorite 9mm is the BHP, again I like the action ad trigger. 9mm is very good and is perhaps "better" as I have used for the same reasons as the Kframe.

Now I do have a Keltec P-11, again I have used for CCW, down on the farm and taken critters with it also. I have spent a lot of time to know this gun. Granted it is NOT in the same catagory as a BHP as far as trigger, sights, and the velocity is less due to a shorter bbl.

I use my CCWs often in this matter for a number of reasons. Shooting live critters for rabid control helps me in training so to speak. I see what bullets ( especially my loads) do in real life use. Much like what Mr. Camp shares when he does one of his excellent reviews.

Legally I must use a 5" bbl to hunt. It's no secret I CCW a full size 1911 style, this is my first choice for a CCW, it works very well for farm critter control, putting a finishing shot on game. See I carry CCW when fishing, and hunting. One never know if predator is 4 or 2 legged.

I prefer the SA of a 1911 style and BHP and the action of a DA Revolver like an old smith wheel ( 3" K frame we'll say in this case). So I kinda lean to what the shooter is best with for an "all around gun" .

The Keltec does fill a niche, the Glock 26 ( I've borrowed) does the same thing, more capacity, a bit more oomph, but in many people's hands the DA revolver, even with fixed sights like mine, they shoot better.

I'd kinda choose which I shot best and use good loads.
 
"I have a load for the .38 Special that gives you a 170 grain Keith bullet at 1100 fps out of a 2" barrel."------ Yup while this 'tamped' 2400 load still prolly produces under the CUP the 9mm works at, it really out umphs the 9mm. How about 1200fps with 158grain hp's out of 4" Colt police positive? How about 997fps with 200grain bullet out of same? .38 specials work better with heavier bullets. In a gun with same demensions and metalllurgy as 9mm guns why not same pressures?:what:
 
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