A curious thing happened at the range today

[SunnySlopes]

I was firing reloads out of my Beretta 92FS. Everything's going fine and then on round #30, the hammer drops, and nothing happens. (Round #30 was about the fifth or sixth round in the magazine.)

I wait the obligatory 10 seconds or so, just in case it's a hangfire. Still nothing.

I took the mag out and pulled back the slide. All of the powder (Unique) flew out as did the case. The primer hadn't been touched. The bullet was lodged in the chamber and came out relatively easily. I say "relatively" because it was nothing like a squib load where the bullet is halfway in the barrel.

The bullet was a Berry's plated and the plating was peeled off on one side.

The only thing I can think of is that somehow I failed to taper crimp this round. I loaded it on a Dillon Square Deal and it's possible, in one of my obsessive compulsive checking on the rounds to see if they're loaded, I might have advanced it without crimping.

Thoughts?

thanx

 

[moxie]

Not sure how absence of crimp would account for no mark on the primer.

Might check firing pin, spring, and channel and see if any gunk is present that could have stopped or slowed the firing pin.

 

[willypete]

Was the case a .380? Just a thought. That might account for no primer strike, as well as the bullet engaging the rifling and getting stuck.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I'm with moxie on part of this...

Sounds like you have more than one problem here:

1. Your primer wasn't touched, which indicates a problem with the pistol. I suppose if the primer wasn't seated all the way, it would be possible for this to happen, but I'd think the firing pin should leave SOME marking anyway. Disassemble, inspect, and clean your pistol. Inspect all bullets in that batch for proper primer seating.

2. Your bullet came apart, which indicates a problem with the reloading process with that particular round. Inspect all the remaining bullets of that batch for similar issues.

 

[David E]

Failure to crimp the case would be readily apparent.......but...

It's possible the uncrimped case could've prevented the slide from fully going into battery, but enough to allow the trigger to trip the hammer. Upon which, the hammer blow didn't strike the firing pin, but the bottom edge of the slide and was sufficient to bump the slide fully forward. This caused the unfired, uncrimped round to go forward enough for the bullet to engage the rifling.

Upon racking the slide open. The bullet, being held tight by the rifling, stayed in the barrel while the extractor pulled the uncrimped case off the bullet.

Check your cases for sufficient crimp.

 

[Dentite]

Was the case a .380? Just a thought. That might account for no primer strike, as well as the bullet engaging the rifling and getting stuck.

I've never reloaded on a progressive press but I've had a couple .380 get mixed in with 9mm and when resizing there is an obvious change in the way the press feels. Something along the lines of...THUNK...what the heck? Oh, a .380 case got mixed in there. I know there are more things going on per handle pull on a progressive so I'm not sure how different the pull would feel.

 

[HKGuns]

I've had the same happen. It is pretty hard not to notice it on the press, especially a progressive. I can't see a bad crimp causing that either.

 

[David E]

A .380 case should be painfully obvious to anyone.

 

[orionengnr]

I've never had a .380 case get in with my 9mm (or for that matter, a .40 in with my 10mm, a .38 Spl in with my .357, a .45GAP in with my .45acp...must I continue?)

But I have a friend who loaded a .380 while loading 9mm. He did not catch it while loading, but noticed it during his post-loading visual inspection. I still have it, and keep it with a few other "reminder" rounds.

 

[wally]

Was the case a .380? Just a thought. That might account for no primer strike, as well as the bullet engaging the rifling and getting stuck.

This would be my bet, especially if the OP was not using a taper crimp.

I run high volume 9mm through my Dillon and a .380ACP case mixed in with the 9mm happens. Usually I catch it by the total lack for force in resizing, or notice the "high" powder level in the short case when I go to seat the bullet, but every once in a while one ends up loaded in the bin. Since I use the Lee "factory crimp" die I honestly have never noticed anything unusual when I've fired them, the only time I notice is when they are a "dud" because the extractor didn't hold them firmly enough to set off the primer. Without the taper crimp, I could see this doing exactly what the OP has observed.

I've never had a .380 case get in with my 9mm (or for that matter, a .40 in with my 10mm, a .38 Spl in with my .357, a .45GAP in with my .45acp...must I continue?)

Did I miss a smiley, or do you spend more time sorting cases than I do reloading? Never had a Win NT small pistol primmed .45ACP case in with the rest? You lead a charmed life.

 

[David E]

(a.380 case) would be my bet, especially if the OP was not using a taper crimp.

I run high volume 9mm through my Dillon and a .380ACP case mixed in with the 9mm happens. Since I use the Lee "factory crimp" die.....Without the taper crimp, I could see this doing exactly what the OP has observed.

Except that its physically impossible as far as the crimp is concerned.

The .380 case is 2mm's shorter than the 9x19 case. It's too short to fully activate the belling at the powder station and too short to receive any sort of crimp from a die adjusted to the 9x19

 

[SunnySlopes]

David E said,

It's possible the uncrimped case could've prevented the slide from fully going into battery, but enough to allow the trigger to trip the hammer. Upon which, the hammer blow didn't strike the firing pin, but the bottom edge of the slide and was sufficient to bump the slide fully forward. This caused the unfired, uncrimped round to go forward enough for the bullet to engage the rifling.

Upon racking the slide open. The bullet, being held tight by the rifling, stayed in the barrel while the extractor pulled the uncrimped case off the bullet.

This was similar to another explanation I received.

And for the other thoughts re 380. I don't have any 380.

thanx for the responses.

 

[Steve C]

I took the mag out and pulled back the slide. All of the powder (Unique) flew out as did the case. The primer hadn't been touched. The bullet was lodged in the chamber and came out relatively easily. I say "relatively" because it was nothing like a squib load where the bullet is halfway in the barrel.

To me it sounds like a bullet seated too long and wound up jamming into the rifling before the bullet was fully chambered. The slide was kept open by the failure to fully chamber and the hammer failed to hit the firing pin and the firing pin didn't hit the primer due to the out of battery. When the slide was racked back the case was pulled and the powder spilled out as the bullet stuck in the rifling. I think this theory pretty much explains each aspect of the OP's description of what happened.

 

[David E]

To me it sounds like a bullet seated too long....

If it were long enough to do that, it'd be obvious and would be too long to fit in the magazine. (It was the 5th or 6th round in the magazine)

 

[moxie]

I don't have a 92 in front of me to test it, but will a 92 even fire if the slide isn't fully into battery?

 

[Drail]

If a bullet can be pulled out or pushed back into the case then there is not enough case neck tension. The reason is your expander die is overexpanding the case ( or the case is not being sized down enough). You should be able to seat a bullet and with no crimp applied, you should not be able to move the bullet. At all. The crimp is maybe 15% of what is holding the bullet in the case. Measure the button of your expander die. It needs to be 4 or 5 thous. under the bullet's dia. If it's not, the expander button can be chucked in a drill and turned down until it is. Do not rely on crimp to keep a bullet in place.

 

[David E]

I don't have a 92 in front of me to test it, but will a 92 even fire if the slide isn't fully into battery?

No, but it'll drop the hammer.

Remember, we're just talking being out of battery by 1/8th" or 1/16th" or so.

 

[1SOW]

If it were long enough to do that, it'd be obvious and would be too long to fit in the magazine. (It was the 5th or 6th round in the magazine)

He didn't say the bullet nose-shape/type. If it was intentionally loaded fairly close to the rifling and #30 was just a little too long it might happen with a 'strong' slide spring.
The mags could easily accept some of types bullets loaded too long for the chamber. A conical FN or JHP comes to mind, but wiith a .378-ish taper crimp it should have extracted intact unless it really got slammed into the chamber.
"Only the Shadow knows"

Check/measure your taper crimps and monitor those oals.

 

[wally]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wally
(a.380 case) would be my bet, especially if the OP was not using a taper crimp.

I run high volume 9mm through my Dillon and a .380ACP case mixed in with the 9mm happens. Since I use the Lee "factory crimp" die.....Without the taper crimp, I could see this doing exactly what the OP has observed.

Except that its physically impossible as far as the crimp is concerned.

The .380 case is 2mm's shorter than the 9x19 case. It's too short to fully activate the belling at the powder station and too short to receive any sort of crimp from a die adjusted to the 9x19

You are totally wrong. Being 2mm shorter the .380 case "resized" to 9mm accepts the bullet just fine despite the lack of bell and activates my Dillon powder feed just fine. I've accidentally made and fired some 9mm loads in .380 cases.

But you are correct that the shorter .380 case will get no crimp from the seating die, which is why I speculated if he didn't taper crimp that could explain the mis-fire (2mm short head space) and the bullet pulling out on ejection, especially if the OAL was a bit on the long side and the pistol was prone to push feed (are Beretta 92 controlled feed? I don't recall). But after going through my taper crimp die, the bullets won't pull out very easily (otherwise I'd pull them instead of just shooting them when I notice them loading the mags).


With the taper crimp I've fired a few 9mm loads that ended up loaded in a .380 case and either its a mis-fire from being too short or I never notice much of anything different, in my pistols with my loads being near max OAL the 9mm in a .380 case the misfires are pretty rare, as is actually firing the 9mm loaded in a .380 case rounds, but I've done it enough over the years I don't obsess about letting one slip through.

And for the other thoughts re 380. I don't have any 380.

Unless you are the only shooter where you shoot, its way to easy to pick up someone else's .380 empty along with your 9mm empties.

I don't have any WinNT or .45GAP ammo either, but I've found more than a few of these cases mixed in with my brass, unlike the .380/9mm mixup, the small primer pocket stops the whole reloading shebang in its tracks

I've have observed the bullet pulling out of a .45ACP reload when the combination of OAL and bullet shape conspired to make the pistol not go fully into battery and thus misfire, but racking the slide was far more difficult than normal.

 

[David E]

You are totally wrong. Being 2mm shorter the .380 case "resized" to 9mm accepts the bullet just fine despite the lack of bell and activates my Dillon powder feed just fine. I've accidentally made and fired some 9mm loads in .380 cases.

You need to read more carefully. I never said it wasn't possible to load a .380 case on dies set up to load 9mm. I said it was physically impossible for the shorter .380 case to fully activate the belling at the powder station and that it would not crimp.

It's fully explained in the quote you included in your post.