A series of tactical mistakes I have done today

[Snejdarek]

I found myself in a rather heated situation today in which I have made a series of tactical mistakes. Maybe someone could learn from them, or maybe I can learn from your feedback, so I will lay it out here.

First of all, this happened to me in Prague, Czech Republic. So please understand that general threat level is very low and so is probability of violent escalation. If this happened at a different place at different time of a day, I would of course react differently.

MISTAKE NO. 1: CHANGE OF MY EDC

My EDC usually consists of a pistol (usually CZ 75 PCR, less often CZ 75 Stainless, rarely Kahr CM9), Spyderco Street Bowie and a pepper spray.

In Prague, the most probable scenario involves a drunkard/junkie that is more of a nuisance than a real threat, so the pepper spray might be called the most essential part of EDC. I definitely don't want to get physical with anyone like that and use of firearm would be extremely disproportionate.

Anyways, I went to the range yesterday (500m) and when I got out of the car, I decided to leae the pepper spray out of my pocket, as well as paper tissues.

Then came the first mistake, when I was returning I left the pocket size pepper spray with all the other things in the bag. And I left the bag unpacked with the plan to go through all the stuff tonight.


MISTAKE NO. 2: ONE GUN IS ENOUGH HONEY

We decided to take about hour and half long walk through a park close to our flat. Take few stations with subway and then go back home through the park.

I am usually the one that reminds my GF to take her CC piece. This time, as we were about leave the flat, she told me she hasn't got her gun. It's scorching hot, she had a short summer dress and a purse, and it just went through my mind hat it is Sunday noon and we might not need one extra gun in off body carry in the purse.

So I asked whether she has her pepper spray and if she can take my extra mag to purse and that will be enough.

That was our setup. Me with a knife & pistol both IWB CC, her with spray and extra mag in purse.


MISTAKE NO. 3: ENGAGING WITHOUT FULL SITUATIONAL AWARENESS

We were waiting at the subway station when a train came in from the opposite direction. Casual conversation. A guy passes by and his hand gives a long slide over my GF's hind part (let's call him "perp" from now on).

I was aware enough that I knew they were two together and that one was passing me on my side and the perp on my GF's side.

However I didn't take a look around to make sure there is not more of them. It didn't bite me, but still, a mistake made.

I immediately shouted at him in a way that nobody in the station could miss (something along the line "hey, what do you think you are doing").

Guy turned around, visibly drunk and started saying something about being sorry in English. Seemed like a Balcan/Ukrainian type. The other one came back and started asking what happened.

I told them that apologies won't make it and that I want them to wait for the police, which I was about to dial.


MISTAKE NO. 4: BE SURE YOU GIVE YOUR POSITION RIGHT TO THE POLICE

As I dialed they started insisted that they are sorry and police is not necessary, getting to me a little closer than what I considered safe. So i untucked my shirt in a way that my CZ was clearly visible to them, told them that I am not interested in debating the topic, asked them to keep 5 meters away from us at the least and wait for the police, they can say the apologies to the officers.

Anyways, them coming face to face to me at that moment got me quite an adrenaline rush and for a reason I can't understand, I told the dispatch name of wrong subway station.

Perpetrator started walking away from us and the other guy was there with us saying this is unnecessary.

By that point my GF told me several times "leave it be".


MISTAKE NO. 5: FOLLOW THREAT, LEAVE GF BEHIND

I was keeping about 20 meters distance from the guy leaving, with police still on the phone, while my GF remained where she was (hand in purse on pepper spray all the time). The other guy stayed with her trying to reason (in non-threatening way) with her, since he saw there is no talking me out of it.

There seemed to be no threat to her but I still should have kept to her instead of going after the other guy.

We talked this part through in detail and next time, she will be the one on phone, keeping her distance from the situation but still close enough to me.


MISTAKE NO. 6: LET THREAT COME TOO CLOSE

The perp slowly moved out of the subway station. I followed and dialed police again updating my position (this time correctly, officers were in the meantime probably already in the wrong one, one stop away from us). The other guy was also out, my GF about 15 meters behind me.

I didn't engage them in any way, verbally or other, just kept my distance to be able to pin point them for the police.

They saw me and in came back to me again trying to explain that the whole situation is unnecessary.

The only response they were getting was "stay at least 5 meters away from me" and "wait for the police", which I was sure to say while still on the line (so it is on the record).

I updated the position and hanged up.


MISTAKE NO. 7: LET THE ****ER GET AWAY
We moved another about 150 meters from the station. The two sat on a bench and shouted something along the line "OK, we will wait here". (I kept about 40 meters distance from them).

They started smoking and I again called the police, asking arrival time, and only at that moment the dispatcher told me that I gave them wrong place originally so that the unit they sent is on the way from the original one. I gave them direct address as I was next to a block of flats that had the plate on it with street name and number and waited some more.

The perpetrator smoked his cigarette and being bored, decided to leave. I followed for a brief moment, but with my GF repeately saying to leave it be while refusing to give any more chase, and the other guy keeping his 50m and waiting, I decided it's time to leave him.


MISTAKE NO. 8: NOT FOLLOWING THROUGH?
Perpetrator disappeared.

Police car arrived, I told them what happened, the other guy said that he didn't see it but they apologized and that they don't understand why police had to be involved.

Officer asked what he would have done in my place and he said "I'd kick his teeth out but wouldn't call the police."

Officer asked if we want them to follow through. I knew what my GF is thinking and asked her about it, and we arrived to conclusion that we will leave it be.

Officer said they will drive around some more and see if they can find the guy to check him out but anyways, in situation like that there is not much they can do.


MISTAKE NO. 9: OFFICER ASKS IF HE CAN END THE CALL

At each time the dispatch officer asked me if he can end the call. I didn't pay attention to it but now it rings a bell. That is a legal issue for him and I gave him positive answer. The call is being taped and next time, I will not answer that question.


What I did right:
- I put myself between them and my GF both at the beginning and at the second call
- I asked dispetcher to tell the policemen that I am armed with legally held firearm
- I avoided escalation, and even though citizen's arrest crossed my mind at that point, I didn't act upon it
- I let them know I am armed in a way that didn't leave me open to any legal repercussions but yet fulfilled the purpose more than enough


What I was hoping would happen.
1) Mainly - if this is a behaviour the perp resorts to at noon on sunday when there are people around, what does he do in the evening in park or an elevator when there is nobody close?
2) They were clearly from outside EU. I wanted police to check perp's papers. Things work fast here, if he is illegal he would be out fast.
3) This kind of misdemeanor is punishable by up to CZK 20.000 fine. I would press for maximum amount.
4) This kind of misdemeanor is also punishable by order not to enter given municipal area.I would press for that too. If he would show around again in spite of such decision, that would be already criminal - in which case he would be most probably kicked out of the country even if he is legally here.

Anyways, if you see any more mistakes in what I did, please let me know.

We had a long talk with my GF about it and we will be sure not to repeat them.

Her innitial reaction was "I walk alone around here often and I can bump into these idiots at any time, now I will have to avoid this part, you didn't slove anything and it could have turned much worse."

In the end she understands I can't leave this fly and just pretend it didn't happen. Next time, she will be on the phone, and that continuously.

 

[the Black Spot]

So this whole thing went down because your GF was dressed in short summer dress and supposed drunk gets frisky? If so,remember "means, motive, opportunity"
We can't do much about first two, but we can about the last one. Imho

Thanks for pointing out what we should be cautious about

 

[Snejdarek]

because your GF was dressed in short summer dress

Are you saying she should change her clothes attire in order to avoid similar situations in the future?

 

[Old Guy]

People have been blaming the fault of groping on how a female is dressed for years! My upbringing in things and people was simple, if it is not yours, don't touch!

Living in Sydney Australia 1965 to 1968, I had an adventure, two couples, out for a night out, in Kings Cross, downtown. All four of us, looking in the display of watches/jewellery store on the main street.
A man grabbed my Wife's bum on his way by, he had only gone a couple of yards, when I buried the toe of my boot in his butt! He gave a big yelp and took off running.
I must have done some damage.

 

[edwardware]

Are you saying she should change her clothes attire in order to avoid similar situations in the future?

Maybe. Dressing to attract attention. . . attracts attention. I don't live there, so I have no idea what the local cultural expectations are like

. . . I can't leave this fly and just pretend it didn't happen.

And there is your first and greatest tactical mistake: you answered an insult. You'd have been safer walking away and calling the police. Instead you initiated a verbal altercation, and informed the perp that you were armed.

In my opinion, if you're not willing or able to walk away meekly from an insult, rather than escalate, you shouldn't carry a gun. Carry a gun, or carry your ego; never both. Unarmed men get to engage in chest thumping; armed men should be meek until it's time to start shooting.

 

[the Black Spot]

I mentioned the attire becuase you listed that in the details. Could that have been the weight that tipped the scales for the unwanted touching? Just a point to ponder.
Old guy doesnt mention attire for their night out on the town.
It is hard sometimes to plan ahead for unwanted altercations, but if we can look ahead a remove any of the "opportunities" it could save us hassles later on.
(Ex: walking to car while reading a text gives opportunity, obviously)

Good points by edwardware

 

[Snejdarek]

Do I understand correctly that the best way to avoid this situation, according to American CCers, would be for a woman to wear burka and a man not to pay attention in case others start touching her against her will?

 

[Odd Job]

Even if your girlfriend was wearing a cheese-cutter, that's no excuse to grope.
I probably also would have shouted to the guy not to grab my girlfriend's arse, but after that I would have followed my girlfriend's lead about whether she thought it was serious enough to get the police involved.
But certainly it isn't a case for brandishing a gun or following a person.
Remember, the person who has a case against this individual is your girlfriend, not you.

 

[Snejdarek]

But certainly it isn't a case for brandishing a gun or following a person.

I didn't brandish firearm for groping, I brandished it when the two came directly at my face while I was dialing police.

or following a person.

Fair enough.

 

[edwardware]

Do I understand correctly that the best way to avoid this situation. . . would be for a woman to wear burka and a man not to pay attention in case others start touching her against her will?

Hyperbole doesn't help your case.

Your girlfriend's dress is no excuse for assault; that's entirely beside the point.

To reiterate: that gun on your hip should restrict your available actions, because you no longer have the option to answer an insult. Your actions escalated the situation from past unwanted contact with no threat of further harm into ongoing confrontation involving the threat of deadly force; that was a tactical mistake.

You continued a confrontation, with all the risks therein, that would have been over if you'd walked away and called the police.

The gun is a tool to help you survive, not to give you confidence to go calling out drunk idiots. You'd have been safer walking away, so you should have.

 

[charliehustle10]

While I'm no one to judge "kicking someone's teeth in", at the end of the day you have to ask yourself is it worth it.

 

[WrongHanded]

Regarding revealing clothing, and to what if any degree it could be considered a catalyst to the unwanted groping:

It doesn't matter what a woman is wearing, her state of dress is not an invitation to be touched by anyone without her consent. However, if leaving the door to my house open is more likely to invite buglary, I will keep my doors locked. If going to the wrong neighborhood at night is likely to get me into a violent confrontation, I will avoid it whenever possible. If leaving my wallet and phone on the table at the local coffee shop whilst I use the restroom is likely to result in them being stolen, I will take them with me.

And if me persuing someone who touched my wife's butt in public is likely to result in her being left vulnerable, or myself getting into an aggressive and potentially violent confrontation, I'm probably going to defer to her on the matter and try to avoid getting us both into trouble.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Just because they should not, doesn't mean they can't and won't.

 

[Snejdarek]

Thank you all for your feedback.

I will do some thinking on the issue of restraint vs. not protecting the one I love the most. @WrongHanded summed it up nicely:

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Just because they should not, doesn't mean they can't and won't.

On the issue of attire, those comments honestly surprised me. Maybe because the Czech Republic is quite a libertarian place compared to US.

 

[paulsj]

The guy was visibly inebriated therefore I would have that one slide by.

 

[scaatylobo]

Sorry but you were NOT "protecting" your girl friend.

She was already groped by the time you chose to open up and challenge the groper.

I have gotten to the age that I see my EGO as my biggest enemy.

And any man that does not "want" to slap the stupid out of a groper is a POS,and a turd.

Wanting and actually doing are a long ways apart from one another.

I am CONSTANTLY reminding myself of this very simple rule.

ANY confrontation will most likely end in = hospital [ for one of most likely both or ALL involved ]

ANY confrontation will end in physical injury [ at what age does a broken bone become a REAL danger ]

So ,hospital,physical injury,death,jail = or all of the above.

OH,and do not forget the cost = at least 10 thousand [ American ] if you get off lightly.

AND,I just hope I can keep my yap shut and walk away ----- if allowed.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Hmmmm.........I've never been to the Czech republic, but brandishing a deadly weapon and attempting to hold people in an area for doing something that's rude and chauvinistic but not actually illegal would land you in cuffs here in the states. False imprisonment, menacing, maybe harrassment too.

I get wanting to defend her honor (and yours), but you made poor choices all around. What if the two weren't so docile? What if they'd been armed? This could have ended very badly for you.

 

[Snejdarek]

chauvinistic but not actually illegal

Groping is actually illegal in my country. You say it is legal in US?

And I didn't brandish firearm for groping, I brandished it when the two came directly at my face while I was dialing police.

 

[bob40caliber]

Unless you felt in current, imminent danger for either your gf or you, showing you were armed was a mistake IMHO.
If you were in to need to later draw that pistol, you want the element of surprise.

 

[BLB68]

OP, you should get some training on the legalities and proper mindset of carrying a firearm. You aren't mentally prepared for the responsibility.

When you leave your house armed with lethal force, you need to realize that any potentially violent encounter becomes amplified by the presence of your weapon.

You made note of the legal penalties for groping. I didn't see capital punishment on the list. Did the drunk deserve to die for groping? Because if your display pissed him off (and showing a weapon to a drunk -- or anyone -- can escalate rather than deescalate a situation), you'd be fighting two men for control of your firearm. Now you're in a disparity of force situation that might justify lethal force on your part . . . but you precipitated it.

Look at it this way: You tell your friends, "This guy groped my wife and I punched him out." They're going to probably nod and tell you he deserved it. You tell your friends, "This guy groped my wife so I shot him." They're probably going to think you're psychotic.

At all times while carrying in public, you need to avoid confrontations. If you can't do that, then don't carry.

You should have taken a description then reported it to the police. Which brings up one other point that stands out to me:

I was in the Military Police for a few years in my younger days. Certainly not as much experience as many of our LEO and retired LEO members, but enough to learn this: Arresting people is dangerous. It's dangerous when you have a ballistic vest, a belt full of gear, a radio and a partner. It's something you should leave to the police. You should have never attempted to hold those two for the police. You extended an already tense encounter, and prolonged your risk.

 

[Snejdarek]

If you were in to need to later draw that pistol, you want the element of surprise.

Courts here see it a little different. In case when agressor knows that you are armed/was given a warning (verbal, visual, warning shot), they take it as basically his own decision to go against the gun.

Unless you felt in current, imminent danger for either your gf or you, showing you were armed was a mistake IMHO.

Well they were two, they got directly at my faces telling me I should not call the police. How do you think I felt.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Groping is actually illegal in my country. You say it is legal in US?

Not exactly, but there isn't really a crime you can charge someone with here for it unless it continues and crosses the line into harassment or assault. If you called the police or sheriff here because some drunk on the street groped your lady one time in passing, they'd almost certainly tell you there's nothing they can do and to get over it. As for attempting to detain them in the area, citizen's arrest (especially with threat of lethal force) is generally only permissible here in felony cases.

And I didn't brandish firearm for groping, I brandished it when the two came directly at my face while I was dialing police.

Again, I can't speak to Czech laws, but over here, brandishing a weapon when there's not an immediate, imminent threat can very easily land you in jail. Only you know how the two were behaving, whether or not that threat was justified, but from what you described in your OP, they were apologetic and just wanted to get away from the situation. In the States, "getting to me a little closer than what I considered safe" wouldn't make muster.

 

[Snejdarek]

As for attempting to detain them

Let me clarify, I told them to wait for the police but did not in any way try to detain them. I never stood in their way, never touched any of them, never threatened them.

Only you know how the two were behaving

At that moment I felt an imminent threat of them getting physical. I did not threaten to use the gun, I told them to keep their hands off me and that I am not interested in a scuffle, not least because I am armed.

 

[Snejdarek]

Sorry but you were NOT "protecting" your girl friend.

She was already groped by the time you chose to open up and challenge the groper.

The way I see it my GF may have been quite probably a woman No. 5 he did it to that day. And he felt it is OK because it has no repercussions in this country. He may also feel that more is OK in the dark when people are not around.

You are right that I have not been able to stop him during the act. On the other hand, he may not think any more this behaviour is acceptable.

@BLB68 Thank you for your comment. I think it will stay with me for a time. Just for clarification, in years of CCing this was the first time I got to a situation like this. I was in hot water several times and kept my cool, swallowed my pride, walked away.

 

[z7]

My thoughts

Was showing off the gun needed?

The perp is an a-hole and is 100% wrong,

After the grope, did you fear for life or limb? Once the perp disengaged and wanted to walk away, why follow?

Is ccw a means of justice or a means of defense/survival?

Sure, getting some sort of Justice is nice, but isn’t it easier, safer, and less likely to cause a miscalculation if you end the threat and remove yourself/significant other from danger vs chasing the perp until the police arrive?

My ccw thought process is to back down and remove myself from most confrontations if possible. “Is this issue worth killing over?”

If I cannot get out, that is when things would escalate

You had a good threat assessment before you left the house and a pretty good set up, but you might have forgotten the point of the ccw and pepper spray, IMO.

 

[psyopspec]

'If a woman's ankle, calf, thigh, mid-riff, or any other subjective amount of skin can be seen, she shouldn't be surprised if she's touched or even raped without consent.'

Thankfully, Prague is not the savage land this thread seems to assume. Neither Afghan nor American Taliban rules apply.