Abu Ghraib Report

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Maybe so, but the Abu Gharib soldiers had a duty to ignore illegal or unlawful as outlined by the USMJ and the oath they took, right?

In my opinion everyone who had more than an insignificant part in this should rot in Leavenworth for 10 years.
 
10 years for a little more than a frat house hazing, you've got to be joking. JMO but I don't have a whole lot a sympathy for the prisoners that were "abused". Look at what our guys had to suffer through in WWII. Those were atrocities. Naked Twister hardly warrants 10 years. If it worked to save 1 GI I'm all for it!
 
:rolleyes:

If anything it got more of our soldiers killed by enraging the insurgents even more. Torture no matter how mild is INDEFENSIBLE. I'd like to think that we as a Nation are beyond stuff like this but we're not. Hell the CIA or other government organizations sends prisoners to other countries to have them tortured.
 
What about shoving stuff in prisoner's asses and forcing them to perform sex acts on each other? If I encountered someone doing that to a prisoner I would execute them without even thinking twice about it.
 
dloken
You have got to be kidding. I suffered far more abuse as a Tenderfoot Boy Scout than those prisoners did. That was not torture. Stupid prank? Yup. Punishable? Yup. Ten years in Leavenworth? Ridiculous.

And where did you get the information that the CIA sends prisoners off to other countries for torture? You got a special line of information into the CIA?
 
Yeah, we wouldn't want to make them mad at us. They might behead(contractors), rape (female GIs), execute our guys that they are holding prisoner. Oh wait, they already do that.
If anything it got more of our soldiers killed by enraging the insurgents even more.

Prove it.
Torture no matter how mild is INDEFENSIBLE. I'd like to think that we as a Nation are beyond stuff like this but we're not. Hell the CIA or other government organizations sends prisoners to other countries to have them tortured. Today 05:22 PM

I'd wager if your family or loved one was being held prisoner and threatened with execution, and a guy wouildn't talk. You'd change your mind. If it were my son or daughter, I'd do it personally. Even that great conservative Alan Dershowitz admitted the same.
 
That's a nice example. It's unfortunate that most of the people getting into Abu Gahraib are just pulled off the street on tips. Someone else wrote an excellent explanation of who is going in there, how they're being chosen, and why it isn't a good idea.

The chances of anyone being tortured because they know the location of a hostage and won't tell are slim to none. Your argument is much like an antigunner talking about the chances for an innocent person to be hit by stray gunfire from a ccwer defending their person.
 
And where did you get the information that the CIA sends prisoners off to other countries for torture? You got a special line of information into the CIA?

Don't know if the torture goes on, but the official term is 'renditions'.

U.S. authorities have flown at least 100 foreigners to countries including Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The Bush administration has said it seeks assurances that the subject will not be tortured, but critics say the practice simply allows the United States to outsource the dirty work.
- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150748,00.html
 
My arguement was to counter a statement that any amount of "torture" is
indefensiible.
Shooting a fellow GI is indefensible. An action you seem to approve of.
I'll shed no tears for the Abu Ghraib prisoners.
 
Once again, the "boots on the ground" take a boot up the rear, and the senior officers who had the authority and who either gave or approved the orders skate. My Lai all over again.

From what I've heard from buddies, intelligence folks were the ones calling the shots. When the story broke, the intelligence folks disappeared and left the Army holding the hot spud. Note, it is illegal for intelligence agencies to give orders to MP's guarding prisoners. The military has been similiarly burned by scandals in the past caused by certain intelligence folks, and hardly surprisingly is not happy about being blamed for it.

It's impossible for systematic abuse to occur in a prison without the brass hearing about it. Word passes around, quickly. Officers are responsible for the actions of their soldiers.


You have got to be kidding. I suffered far more abuse as a Tenderfoot Boy Scout than those prisoners did. That was not torture. Stupid prank? Yup. Punishable? Yup. Ten years in Leavenworth? Ridiculous.

Rape and sexual abuse is not a "stupid prank." It is a crime, and my personal belief is that rapists should be shot. Ten years in Leavenworth is indeed ridiculous. It should be longer.

There is no possible defense for a guard raping a prisoner.
 
blackburn said:

What about shoving stuff in prisoner's asses and forcing them to perform sex acts on each other? If I encountered someone doing that to a prisoner I would execute them without even thinking twice about it.

glad to know our boys on the ground don't have to worry about your kind over there, they have enough problems without some vigilante jackass braying in a forum that he'd shoot em on sight just to protect some poor, misunderstood insurgent scum. :cuss:
 
glad to know our boys on the ground don't have to worry about your kind over there, they have enough problems without some vigilante jackass braying in a forum that he'd shoot em on sight just to protect some poor, misunderstood insurgent scum.

Question. If you were walking through the park, and saw a rapist in the commission of a crime, what would you do?


I'd like to think I'd do the right thing. Disarm them if they are armed and hold them for the proper authorities. In this case, it'd be the MP's or CID. Any soldier that knows of a rape and let's it slide does not deserve to wear a uniform. Yes, it would be satisfying to execute a rapist on the spot, but we're supposed to do the right thing and trust the justice system.


RevDisk
US Army 1999-Present
 
I get it now. The oh-so-sophisticated can preen about how evil the United States is. We had the will and the desire to toss out a malevolent dictator. Democracy has found a place to grow in the Middle East because of our efforts and the lives of 1500 of the best and brightest in our country. Yet you take a tiny hand full of idiots in a prison and that is the scandal?

I must have missed your enraged condemnation of Saddam's rape rooms, your fury at the Europeans pigging out at the Oil for Food trough, your scorn for the intellectual purity of overly simplistic morality.

Nope, you sit safe and sound with you internet connection and computer, all of the world's information at your finger tips and post your Liberal media obsession with Abu Ghraib.
 
You, for one, Iain. You posted an piece of drivel about the CIA sending prisoners off to other countries from a Fox news link that leads to a completely nebulous article. As a British "subject" I think you of all people should be aware that there have been forces in this world that would seek to destroy you and everything you have. And that whilst Chamberlain et al sat around sucking their thumbs, we Americans actually did something about it. That gets messy sometimes.

And RevDisk, exactly what rape are you talking about? There has been no such charge made at Abu Ghraib. Well, no such charge other than the barking moonbats at DU. Are you aware of any such charge?
 
I didn't really need that question answered.

Someone asked a question, I answered it. Renditions happen, that is fact. I specifically stated that I would not attempt to back up claims of torture. Further to those claims, an MSNBC link I found had a statement from a Whitehouse official in which he said of renditions that 'abuses have happened, but no-one has died.' That's good news eh?

(You might want to read up on WWII history with regards to the dates that the various powers got involved. Very grateful for your intervention, but we were not sitting on our appeasing bottoms when the cavalry rode into town.)

Think RevDisk can handle himself if he wants to deal with specific issues surrounding Abu Ghraib, I doubt that my nationality will allow any comments I might make to be heard.
 
exactly. but that wasn't some park full of innocents, which alone is enough reason not to "execute" people on site
Innocents? Considering about 80% of the prisoners were released because they hadn't done anything? Probably...
 
I get it now. The oh-so-sophisticated can preen about how evil the United States is. We had the will and the desire to toss out a malevolent dictator. Democracy has found a place to grow in the Middle East because of our efforts and the lives of 1500 of the best and brightest in our country. Yet you take a tiny hand full of idiots in a prison and that is the scandal?

I must have missed your enraged condemnation of Saddam's rape rooms, your fury at the Europeans pigging out at the Oil for Food trough, your scorn for the intellectual purity of overly simplistic morality.

Nope, you sit safe and sound with you internet connection and computer, all of the world's information at your finger tips and post your Liberal media obsession with Abu Ghraib.

If that last paragraph was directed at me in an any way, you are vastly mistaken. After 9/11, I was guarding a nuclear storage facility. Then my happy rear end did my part against the bad guys in the freezing snow up in some very tall mountains. I hate being frozen, wet, hungry, tired and cranky. Oh yea, I REALLY hate mountains. After that, I helped train host country natives (ie, locals) how to kill terrorists.

I don't claim to be GI Joe. I'm no hero, I don't think I deserve most of the medals I got. I'm a soldier, I went where I was told to go and I did my job. I did my part for this "War on Terrorism" and I like to think I earned the right to have an opinion. Maybe this shiny little "War on Terrorism" medal counts for something?

Do YOU have a pretty little "War on Terrorism Service Medal" or "War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal"? Or are you merely an armchair commando? You're entitled to an opinion either way.



And RevDisk, exactly what rape are you talking about? There has been no such charge made at Abu Ghraib. Well, no such charge other than the barking moonbats at DU. Are you aware of any such charge?

Check your PM box. I'm choosing to take it to PM due to the nature of the material.
 
Nope, you sit safe and sound with you internet connection and computer, all of the world's information at your finger tips and post your Liberal media obsession with Abu Ghraib.

Excuse me? They (The Abu Gharib guards) destroyed some of the little honor and integrity this nation has left. If I were a soldier i'd be even more angry at them since their extremely poor actions reflect very badly on the US Military as a whole.

Renditions:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8008-2005Apr21.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/politic...coll=la-headlines-politics&ctrack=2&cset=true

"The human rights issue has resurfaced in part because Negroponte, if confirmed, would be leading U.S. spy agencies when they are facing criticism for their handling of detainees. Several detainees have died in CIA custody. The agency has also carried out so-called renditions, in which terrorism suspects are transferred to the custody of countries known to engage in torture or abuse"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4563352

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p02s01-usju.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4414491.stm

http://www.janes.com/security/law_enforcement/news/rusi/rjhm050404_1_n.shtml

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7331080/

http://www.expatica.com/source/site...+'rendition'+planes+landed+at+German+airports

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4617291 (this one takes the cake, U.S. Admits German Was Detained in Error)

Is this enough info the prove that the renditions can and do happen?


The bulletin software isn't displaying parts of my post, uh splitting into second post...
 
And that whilst Chamberlain et al sat around sucking their thumbs, we Americans actually did something about it. That gets messy sometimes.


Perhaps this timeline will help you:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/ww2time.htm#1939

Sept 1, 1939 - Nazis invade Poland. <--- This is pretty much the offical start of WWII.

Sept 3, 1939 - Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany.

Sept 5, 1939 - United States proclaims neutrality; German troops cross the Vistula River in Poland.

Sept 10, 1939 - Canada declares war on Germany; Battle of the Atlantic begins.

Forward a few years...

Dec 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor; Hitler issues the Night and Fog decree.

Dec 8, 1941 - United States and Britain declare war on Japan.

Dec 11, 1941 - Germany declares war on the United States.

So here we have, Britain and the Commonwealth nations were involved in WWII two full years before the United States even declared war, let alone sent troops to Europe. It took an act of war on the part of the Japanese to get us involved in the first place. Please think before you post.


So while Chamberlain was sitting on his ass, some of our most famous Americans were helping the Nazi party. Hitler had fans in America:

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/business/henry-ford/

"In 1922, the New York Times reported that Henry Ford had made large financial donations to Adolf Hitler's political campaign in Bavaria. Upton Sinclair, in his book The Flivver King, stated that Ford's contributions had amounted to no less than ($724600 or so in today's dollar) $70,000. Hitler openly praised Ford and had a large portrait of him hanging in his office."

"In 1938, after the Nazis rose to power, Ford received a special birthday present from Hitler. The Grand Cross of the Order of the German Eagle (Grosskreuz des Deutschen Adlerordens) was the highest honor the Reich could bestow on a foreigner. On Henry's 75th birthday, two representatives of the German government came to his office in Dearborn, Michigan and presented him the medal. It was accompanied by a personal greeting from Hitler himself."

"Ford proudly accepted the honor, and never relinquished it. Not after Germany started World War II, not after America was attacked by Japan, not even after the depravities of the Holocaust were revealed." Emphasis mine.

There are other corporate and political connections as well if you're into reading. Look up the America First movement.


This ends my history lesson. Good day, sir.
 
Your Liberal education has worked perfectly! You have summed up the essence of the Left:
1) America is wrong,
2) Whenever America is right, see above.

While at the same time, you have referenced rotten.com as an historical source! Perfect!
 
Once again, the "boots on the ground" take a boot up the rear, and the senior officers who had the authority and who either gave or approved the orders skate. My Lai all over again.

The lack of, um, mass innocent civilian murders makes the comparison of Abu Graib to My Lai seem kind of... stupid?

As for the rest... well, it is on the face of it illegal to follow an illegal order. If somebody, regardless of rank, tells you to break the law, you are legally obligated to not do it. Given that soldiers all get training on the laws of land warfare, this is a no brainer, before you even get to the "common sense" of "not sticking things in foreigners' butts." So the perpetrators need to get crushed into fine paste, regardless of if they were ordered to do it or not.

The curious thing is that all the people alleged to have ordered the soldiers to do this stuff obviously didn't have the legal authority to do so, and even an MP right out of basic training would have known that. Intelligence agencies simply have no authority over military personnel at all. The Army's own intelligence personnel are outside the MP's chain of command, and so can't give them orders to do jack squat, either. As a captain who was a 35E (counter-intelligence officer), I couldn't order the private working at the battalion's dining facility to give me extra hash browns at breakfast; I sure as hell couldn't tell some MPs to go torture some foreigners in their free time.

The other curious thing is that, while I know lots of borderline-illegal things to do to people to make them more cooperative, none of them involve the crimes alleged at Abu Graib, because said crimes, while pretty bad in their own right, were both ridiculously obvious and juvenile as hell. HINT: When spooks are torturing people, they don't allow Polaroids to be taken by some ***** MP along for the ride. And their isn't any forced ass-play, either.

I think there are two possible explanations:

1) The chain of command ordered blanket cooperation with some agency or another, and that agency gave vague and stupid guidance to the MPs to treat certain prisoners crappy, and the MPs came up with moronic yet sadistic things to do, and took pictures of it because they were idiots. In this case the chain of command, the spooks, and the MPs are all responsible in their own way for what happened..

2) The chain of command was just a bunch of retards, the intel folks had nothing to do with it at all, and the MPs in question were just moronically sadistic on their own. In this case, the chain of command is responsible for being retarded, and the MPs are mostly responsible for their actions.

Torture no matter how mild is INDEFENSIBLE.

Um, if it is mild, it is by definition not torture.

Main Entry: 1tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquEre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drAhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

International law is in line with this, e.g.:

The "United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment"(UNCAT) June 1987:

Article 1
1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
 
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