Abu Ghraib Report

[shermacman]

Ditto that, Sean Smith,
And we have the Courts Martials that have taken down those who performed these stunts. It is a bad affair, but hardly worthy of the intense media coverage it has received, especially since the justice system here has been fairly successful in weeding out the rats.

 

[Blackburn]

I'd be pretty uncomfortable if someone started sticking things in MY rear. "Anal play"? It's Anal play if it's consensual, and if I ever encounter someone who is doing that to an unwilling recipient, they are not going to like what happens to them, and I'm not being found at the scene either.

So, shermac, you post something which is incorrect, and someone schools you on it, and the only thing you can do is change the subject?

And that whilst Chamberlain et al sat around sucking their thumbs, we Americans actually did something about it. That gets messy sometimes.

Insert owning of said comment here.

Your Liberal education has worked perfectly! You have summed up the essence of the Left:
1) America is wrong,
2) Whenever America is right, see above.

While at the same time, you have referenced rotten.com as an historical source! Perfect!

Hm, what's missing? That's a leftist tactic to reply to someone bodyslamming your incorrect statement, to change the subject and reply with an attack and ad-hominems.

I call troll.

 

[Rebar]

I find it amazing how much media attention this is getting. Do you think that this abberation in Abu Ghraib is worse then the business-as-usual in any Middle Eastern jail? Do you think prisoners are treated any better in Eygpt, Syria, or Iran?

No, they are treated considerably worse. Why isn't that a story, why aren't those abuses front-page news, why is it ok for moslem countrys to torture and execute prisoners but not ok for some renegade American soldiers to make them play naked twister?

No need to answer, we all know it already, don't we.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The lack of, um, mass innocent civilian murders makes the comparison of Abu Graib to My Lai seem kind of... stupid?

The comparison is not one of the events, it is a comparison of the consequences.

You gentlemen are all so wrapped up in your "America is all wrong" vs. "America can do no wrong" rhetoric that you're all missing the point. Which is, that just as with Lt. William Calley and My Lai, the senior officers who gave the orders and established the policy are skating, while the underlings (who should have disobeyed illegal orders, but for those who have not been in the military, it's not that easy to disobey an order you *think* *might* be illegal) take the heat.

That was the point I was trying to establish -- nothing more, nothing less. Just that the enlisted personnel are being prosecuted and the people responsible for the mess are not.

 

[RevDisk]

I find it amazing how much media attention this is getting. Do you think that this abberation in Abu Ghraib is worse then the business-as-usual in any Middle Eastern jail? Do you think prisoners are treated any better in Eygpt, Syria, or Iran?

No, they are treated considerably worse. Why isn't that a story, why aren't those abuses front-page news, why is it ok for moslem countrys to torture and execute prisoners but not ok for some renegade American soldiers to make them play naked twister?

Indeed, prisoners are generally treated fairly badly in a lot of third world countries. This does not excuse US soldiers from disobeying the UCMJ as well as American law, international law, etc. Rape and sexual abuse of prisoners is a violation of the UCMJ, which binds American soldiers everywhere in the world.

I'm not exactly happy with the human rights abuses world wide. However, I have no desire to serve with any US soldier that finds it amusing to sexually abuse prisoners.

I think there are two possible explanations:

1) The chain of command ordered blanket cooperation with some agency or another, and that agency gave vague and stupid guidance to the MPs to treat certain prisoners crappy, and the MPs came up with moronic yet sadistic things to do, and took pictures of it because they were idiots. In this case the chain of command, the spooks, and the MPs are all responsible in their own way for what happened..

2) The chain of command was just a bunch of retards, the intel folks had nothing to do with it at all, and the MPs in question were just moronically sadistic on their own. In this case, the chain of command is responsible for being retarded, and the MPs are mostly responsible for their actions.

I'd have to agree with you, Sean Smith. Even in the second possibility, the chain of command has responsibility for the actions of their soldiers to some degree.

 

[Spiphel Rike]

As an Australian, and a supporter of the Iraq war, I was extremely disappointed in the behaviour of the individuals involved in the Abu Ghraib scandal. Those who say things like "I was treated worse than that in boy scouts" should shut up, having dogs set on you, being forced to perform sex acts and other abuses are severe, and should be severely punished, both the MP's who did it and the officers that gave the orders.

I don't care if it happens in third world countries, the USA is apparently championing human rights and freedom, but these things cause a huge loss of credibility. Vietnam was not lost because of combat action, it was lost because of politics and anti-war protestors. Why give them ammunition?

 

[dloken]

Your Liberal education has worked perfectly! You have summed up the essence of the Left:

Actually i'd say my education worked and your education did not as evidenced my schooling of your hugely incorrect statement.

And how does this have anything to do with being an evil liberal? I support my country when it is right and I criticize it when it is wrong. I'm not an ignorant jingoist who supports my country no matter if it's right or wrong.

Um, if it is mild, it is by definition not torture.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. People earlier in the thread were trying to defend it because it wasn't torture causing extreme physical pain in the traditional sense. What I was trying to say whether physical or mental, torture is torture and it is horrible any way you slice it. Those who try and defend the MP's actions are just as bad as they are.

I find it amazing how much media attention this is getting. Do you think that this abberation in Abu Ghraib is worse then the business-as-usual in any Middle Eastern jail? Do you think prisoners are treated any better in Eygpt, Syria, or Iran?

Did you ever attend kindergarten? Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Rebar]

Did you ever attend kindergarten? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes, indeed I did attend kindergarden, thanks for inquiring. I also attended High School and Rutgers College where I majored in History and Political Science, and got my BA, in case you have any further educational questions.

As for two "wrongs", I'll state that one wrong has been corrected, the other wrong is still ongoing. Why are you still hammering away at the wrong that's been corrected, yet fail to even mention the wrongs (very much more "wrong" then Abu Ghaib) going on right at this moment?

 

[dloken]

Our wrong may have been corrected but that still doesn't mean other horrible events are anywhere close to justification for Abu Gharib. This is what we call a red herring argument.

Stop trying to justify our mistakes by comparing them to "worse" things in third world countries.

 

[MikeIsaj]

Shermacman,

After reading this thread I'm curious, were you there, where you anywhere near there? I ask because you are full of sharp condemnation for others who in your opinion shouldn't have an opinion because they are not there. I've been there, done that and have the paperwork and scars to show for it. In my opinion based on ten years in the Marines and fifteen in corrections, what those soldiers did was wrong. In their defense they were poorly trained and poorly supervised and heads should roll quite a way up the chain of command. Anyone who's been in combat knows that it is not a no holds barred free for all. Yes, it is violence taken to an extreme level but there are limits. These people were not in combat, the prisoners were at their mercy and they went way over the line that any reasonable person should have questioned as wrong. It's not about what the prisoners deserved. hat's not how a prison is run. It's about what your actions reflect about you and your society. We just overthrew a government that we said was inhumane. What does it make us when we stoop to the same level.

Bottom line, hey were wrong. Why? Because we are better than that!

Please respond with sane, calm counter-argument. Leave the ideological name calling and labeling in some other forum.

Semper Fi!

 

[dolanp]

It is one thing to take a prisoner alone into a room and sweat information out of him using methods necessary. It is an entirely different thing to group a bunch of prisoners together and haze them and sexually assault them just for the 'fun' of it. The few soldiers who do this make our armed forces look like a bunch of stupid children. The idiocy of taking pictures of this stuff baffles me as well.

 

[Rebar]

Stop trying to justify our mistakes by comparing them to "worse" things in third world countries

There's a world of difference between "justify" and "perspective".

I'm not justifying anything, but to make such a big deal out of a few rogue soldiers, who have been or will be punished, yet nothing out of the truly horrific prisoner treatment in many other countries, only shows you're using the incident to beat up on America.

You really don't care about prisoner treatment, only how you can use it to smear the US military and the Bush administration. China, North Korea, Cuba, any of the Middle Eastern countries, Russia, all are vastly worse than Abu Ghraib. And this mistreatment is a matter of government policy, unlike in this instance where it was a handful of stupid bored soldiers got out of hand.

The soldiers should be, and will be, punished. But using some perspective, did this incident really, objectively, needed to be made into a years long propaganda coup for the Isamofacists? The only reason it's been news for so long, is that the MSM needed something to embarrass the Bush administration with. We are at war, and the left-wing media is giving them propaganda for free, and that's the bottom line.

 

[dloken]

You really don't care about prisoner treatment, only how you can use it to smear the US military and the Bush administration. China, North Korea, Cuba, any of the Middle Eastern countries, Russia, all are vastly worse than Abu Ghraib. And this mistreatment is a matter of government policy, unlike in this instance where it was a handful of stupid bored soldiers got out of hand.

Ok, i'm done arguing with you since you have the comprehension skills of a potato. It isn't about smearing the US. China, North Korea, Cuba, middle eastern nations, Russia; What do those nations have in common? They're all second and third world nations or have huge crime and corruption problems. The United States as the supposed land of freedom and democracy should BE ABOVE that sort of bull????.

But using some perspective, did this incident really, objectively, needed to be made into a years long propaganda coup for the Isamofacists?

Being in the media had nothing to do with it. I'm sure word of mouth did more than enough in getting it into the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people that we're trying so hard to win. This will be remembered for years.

 

[Rebar]

Ok, i'm done arguing with you since you have the comprehension skills of a potato.

I called you out, you have no real answer to my points, so you resort to name calling. Typical leftist.

What do those nations have in common?

So, in your opinion, these barbaric countries aren't advanced enough to comprehend or adhere to decent conduct? You, sir, are a bigot.

 

[dloken]

Ooh, i'm a typical leftist... I never mentioned anything about your political ideology. With all the hate for differing view points it's no wonder i'm one of the only "leftist" gun owners here. While this forum has a lot of good information on firearms I am now loathe to send new shooters here as some of the comments I see here might just discourage them from pursuing shooting as a hobby altogether.

So, in your opinion, these barbaric countries aren't advanced enough to comprehend or adhere to decent conduct? You, sir, are a bigot.

I'm not really sure how that makes me a bigot?. Torture and barbaric treatment are common in second and third world countries. We were in a similar boat conduct wise 100-200 years ago. Hell it's been less than 150 years since we had ????ing slaves in our country.

Really, this isn't about any other country. You're just trying to weaken position by bringing up unrelated ancedotal evidence from unrelated places. Let them police their people and we'll police ours. Those involved should be and are receiving harsh penalties.

 

[Rebar]

With all the hate for differing view points it's no wonder i'm one of the only "leftist" gun owners here.

A) You're far from the only leftist here. Plenty of other DU trolls post here too.
B) No one's "hating" your view point, they are only challenging it, if you can't take the heat, go back to DU.

I'm not really sure how that makes me a bigot?

It makes you a bigot because you think that they are somehow incapable of civilized behavior. I for one think they are all fully capable of civilized treatment of their prisoners, they just choose not to as a matter of policy. Which you don't care about.

Really, this isn't about any other country

It is, but lets for the sake of argument, I'll say that the same or worse stuff happens every day in American prisons and jails. But that doesn't smear the US military or the Bush administration, so that's not a headline for one day, never mind the years that this one incident has been kept alive.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Take a step back, people. Most of you are making valid points, but you're getting lost in heat of the arguement.

Sexual abuse is wrong. Anyone perpetratig it should be strung up by the toenails. By all acounts, the prison guards who commited the acts are in the process of being duely punished. This is as it should be.

Simple common sense is enough to conclude that the commanders had no part of the "scandal". Do you really think some general or major gave the order to have prisoners stripped naked and stacked in a pyramid? Do you reallt think some colonel gave the order to have prisononers sodomized? Do you really think such orders can be passed down the chain of command without being questioned?

The intellegence people had nothing to do with this. If they wanted to coerce prisoners into giving up information they would have used much more appropriate techniques. Juvenile pranks that got out of hand (indefensible though they are) are NOT the kind of tools the CIA relies upon. See Sean Smith's post.

Politics is the only reason this "scandal" is anything more than a minor event. The media and the leftists have an anti-war/anti-Bush/anti-military agenda, and they're doing anything they can to advance it.

Objectively, Abu Ghraib has no bearing upon the war overall, nor upon the policies Bush advocates, nor upon the military at large. Objectively, Abu Ghraib warranted nothing more than a second page newspaper story about a few soldiers who acted inappropriately. Anything more than that is a poorly concealed attack on the war or the President or the military.

 

[Rebar]

HTG has stated my point far more clearly then I have to this point, many thanks.

 

[dloken]

It makes you a bigot because you think that they are somehow incapable of civilized behavior. I for one think they are all fully capable of civilized treatment of their prisoners, they just choose not to as a matter of policy. Which you don't care about.

I really don't see how you can imply this from my statements. You're just too stupid to put forth a competent argument so you resort to calling me a bigot.

The media and the leftists have an anti-war/anti-Bush/anti-military agenda, and they're doing anything they can to advance it.

Yeah, the damage it did to the Iraqi perception of us as invaders instead of liberators was a second rate story.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yeah, the damage it did to the Iraqi perception of us as invaders instead of liberators was a second rate story.

I'm notinterested in debating this issue. But please take a moment to consider this:

Which was it, exactly, that made us look bad?
A few miscreant soldiers who were brought to justice
OR
A frenzied media blowing the story out of proportions in a hell-bent effort to make us look bad?

 

[White Horseradish]

A frenzied media blowing the story out of proportions in a hell-bent effort to make us look bad?

Do Iraquis watch US news networks a lot? How would media here affect opinions there more than word of mouth?

 

[Firethorn]

I also agree with HTG.

1. Abu Graib was bad. Maybe moreso for the publicity than what actually occured. I'm personally disappointed that I haven't heard of at least a Major or Colonel being Court Martialed.

2. Disobeying a direct order is ugly(Reason for wanting officer to be court martialed). Also, while we are trained on lawful conduct, at least for me, the training was pretty basic. I think that it's also interesting that several of those convicted were also prison guards for their civilian jobs.

3. While bad, people are being punished for it, and people are suffering worse in other areas, so why don't we spend some effort to clean our own civilian prisons up, where actual rapes occur, with the possibility of AIDS being spread?

 

[Rebar]

I really don't see how you can imply this from my statements.

That doesn't suprise me.

You're just too stupid to put forth a competent argument so you resort to calling me a bigot.

Yup, I'm a regular "potato", according to some folks.

Yeah, the damage it did to the Iraqi perception of us as invaders instead of liberators was a second rate story.

Compared to Saddam's prisons, yes.

 

[RevDisk]

Compared to Saddam's prisons, yes.

We are either an Army of occupation, or an Army of liberation.

If we are occupying their country, we own it. It's under our control, and we can do as we please. Thus we are free to dismiss illegal activities done by soldiers and chuckle at it.

If we are liberating their country, we're guests of the people of Iraq. We're merely there to help the Iraqi people get back on their feet. We must play according to the rules of our hosts. If they have traditions, social norms, etc, we must honor them. Thus we must come down hard on soldiers who break the law and abuse/rape persons under their charge.

If we are liberating their country, the ill behavior of the previous regime cannot be justification for the ill behavior of US forces. Foreign countries ill behavior also cannot be an excuse. If we want the moral high ground, we must take the good and the bad that comes with it.


Bush claims we are the second type of Army, not the first. Can't be both. Sorry, I don't make national policy, I just enforce it. If you dislike this fact, please take it up with Bush and Congress.

 

[Blackburn]

Revdisk, I think your well thought out post will go over people's heads here. The moment you catch them on something they are incorrect about they will immediately pretend that it never happened and call you a leftist

(Ironically that's a prized tactic of commie leftists. Le sigh.)