Accuracy...?

[jr45]

I am new to shooting muzzleloaders and I have two Tradition rifles (one .50 and .54) with 1 in 48" twist. For the life of me, I can't seem to hit an 18"x24" paper target past 50 yards. I have tried both patch and ball (ensured spur cut was facing up) and conicals. I used 60 through 100 grains of Pyrodex RS and Triple 7 FFG with no luck...the balls and conicls were tight fits. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Shooting modern firearms is no problem for me.

 

[eagle24]

First, 1:48 twist is slow twist designed for patched round balls. Forget the conicals in those barrels.

If you are shooting off a rest, then you have something bad wrong. You should be able to get at least a 1-1/2" group from 50 yds. I would actually expect even better than that.

My current, and only muzzleloader is a .32 cal flintlock southern rifle. It shoots a ragged 1 hole group at 25yds and about 1-1/4" at 50yds. The .32 is more affected by the wind at 50yds and beyond than your .50 or .54 should be. I would expect better accuracy from a .50 or .54 at 50-100yd distances.

Are you shooting from a bench? What size ball are you shooting? What thickness patch? What are you using for patch lube? What are you cleaning with?

 

[jr45]

First, 1:48 twist is slow twist designed for patched round balls. Forget the conicals in those barrels.

If you are shooting off a rest, then you have something bad wrong. You should be able to get at least a 1-1/2" group from 50 yds. I would actually expect even better than that.

My current, and only muzzleloader is a .32 cal flintlock southern rifle. It shoots a ragged 1 hole group at 25yds and about 1-1/4" at 50yds. The .32 is more affected by the wind at 50yds and beyond than your .50 or .54 should be. I would expect better accuracy from a .50 or .54 at 50-100yd distances.

Are you shooting from a bench? What size ball are you shooting? What thickness patch? What are you using for patch lube? What are you cleaning with?

Thanks for the reply
-I am shooting from a rest
-Patch thickness is unknown...purchased them from the shop and lubed with bore butter and is a very tight fit with the ball
-.50 ball is .490 and the .54 is .530 or .535
-I clean the bore with warm soapy water, dry with patch and jag, then run jag with bore butter down the bore

I've been shooting modern firearms for years and I know my sight picture is correct. When I do hit the target with the muzzleloaders, I don't get groups, I get large patterns.

 

[MutinousDoug]

I think you should try holy black. I gave up on Pyrodex years ago because I could not get consistent ignition and consequent accuracy in my guns. I understand that Triple 7 is sensitive to variations in compression under the ball (I have no personal experience with it).
My club sponsors a muzzleloading match every month; very well attended and some great shooting is done from 25 to 100 yds. NONE of the shooters would admit to using anything but black powder.
HTH

 

[John4me05]

When you say tight fit.. Is it possible your damaging the projectile while trying to seat it... This could lead to screwy groups... Bullets and balls could be tumbling through the air instead of spinning.. Look at your targets and see if the holes that hit it look uniform in shape in size..

 

[jr45]

When you say tight fit.. Is it possible your damaging the projectile while trying to seat it... This could lead to screwy groups... Bullets and balls could be tumbling through the air instead of spinning.. Look at your targets and see if the holes that hit it look uniform in shape in size..

I did look at the targets for indications of key holing when using the conicals. Both the round balls and conical holes looked fine, just scattered all over the target at 50 yards. I also looked at the bores of both rifles....54 cal is less than 1yr old. When starting the rounds down the barrel, it will take a little effort, nothing excessive. I look at the top of the rounds when after using the ball starter and they may have a slight indentation, if any, in the center. Both rifles are side locks and I am using CCI #11 caps.

I thought that 1 in 48" twist was suitable for both ball and conical. Is there a good powder charge standard for using each type of projectile?

 

[eagle24]

Don't take it wrong, but I'm thinking you might be doing something when you shoot that is causing the problem. Accuracy is surely affected by ball, patch, lube, loading/cleaning procedure between shots, etc..., but I have never seen a rifle (cartridge or muzzleloader) that bad at 50 yards. No feaseable ball/patch/powder/lube combo shoots worse than about 3" at 50 yards (if that bad) from my flintlock.

Here is what I would do. First, get ahold of a can of Goex ffg black powder. The balls you are shooting should be fine. I use pillow ticking from Wal-Mart for patch material. For range lube, I use a "Moose Milk" formula liquid lube. The lube consists of 4oz Murphys Oil Soap, 4oz NAPA water soluble cutting oil, 2oz Hydrogen Peroxide, 22oz tap water to make 1 qt. Do not use this for a hunting lube it contains water and will rust the bore. For hunting I use pure trappers Mink Oil. For cleaning between shots on the range, I use a mixture 50/50 of Simple Green Cleaner and Isopropyl Alchohol.

I first run a patch with the Simple Green/Alchohol cleaner down the bore. Flip the patch over and swab again. Then follow the same procedure with a dry patch. I also do this between shots and two or three times about every 15th shot. I pour my measured charge of black powder down the bore, soak the patch material with the Moose Milk lube, place the patch over the muzzle and seat the ball flush, trim all the excess patch flush with the bore, ram it down with a short starter, then push the ball the rest of the way with my loading rod. I usually start with a charge in grains that matches the bore diameter. My most accurate load in my .32 happens to be 32 gr of fffg, but I would recommend ffg in your larger caliber rifles.

Shoot off a bench rest at 25 yards, same load, same sight picture, 5 shots. See what kind of group you get. You might want to do some adjusting to the sights if you get it shooting a decent group, but reserve the fine tuning for whatever load you come up with as "best" and at the distance you want. You can experiment with different lubes. Try using spit and also plain water for range shooting. Try the mink oil and also crisco. Whatever you use get the patch soaked. Not dripping but thoroughly wet. If you can't get em shooting 2" groups at 25yds something is bad wrong. I would expect much better than that.

Like you, I clean my rifle with warm soapy water. Follow that up with the simple green/alchohol, dry the bore, then run a patch with wd40 to protect until I shoot again. I always check my rifles the day after cleaning by running a patch of cleaner followed by a dry patch for rust. No rust present, I run another oil patch and don't worry about them till next time. Always run a cleaner patch followed by a dry patch before shooting the first shot.

One more thing, don't go as high high with the black powder. I would stay between 40 & 80 gr in both rifles. Rule of thumb is around 2000fps with charge matching bore diameter.

 

[jr45]

eagle24,
Thank you for the information. Your comments did bring somethings to light.
-I did not trim the excess patch when seating the ball...the excess almost covers the entire projectile
-I never cleaned between shots. Only when I got home.
-You, and a few others, mentioned that Pyrodex is not worth the effort

Note: I have also just started shooting a Remington 1858 cap and ball revolver with very good accuracy results. Not patch, just powder, ball, and criso on top.

 

[Steve499]

One thing you might check. After you have fired a few rounds, go out in front of the firing point and find some of your fired patches. If they aren't still intact, that could be your problem. Sometimes patches get cut during loading due to sharp rifling or a too tight patch/ball combination, or too flimsy of a patch to begin with. They should be blackened but have no holes or tears in them.

 

[jr45]

Thank you all for the great responses. I will use your advise and report back the results. The way it is sounding, the problems are originating from my ball-patch-seating procedures and lack of cleaning between shots.

 

[eagle24]

The way it is sounding, the problems are originating from my ball-patch-seating procedures and lack of cleaning between shots.

I would'nt worry too much about the cleaning between shots. It is more important in a smaller caliber than it will be in your .50 or .54. Your cleaning/loading routine will make a difference, and I always experiment to find which yields the best groups for punching paper, but if you can't get it shooting at least a 3" group at 50yds, you have a problem bigger than cleaning routine between shots. If you've been leaving excess patch material, that could cause pretty bad accuracy. Also like Steve said above, you may be cutting your patches on sharp rifling or muzzle when you load. I was thinking, if you have been using precut patches and don't get them centered, you might have the ball patched on one side and without on the other. That will really cause it to shoot erratic. I use bore butter in my revolvers, but don't use it in my rifles. Send me a PM and I will mail you a few strips of the pillow ticking I use for a patch. If you don't want to mix any of the lube right now, spit should work just fine.

 

[Macmac]

One easy way to patch is to cut long strips and once thumb seated pull up some waste and cut both sides at the same time.

You can make a loading block that holds as many loads as you like and have these pre cut in the loading block. My block holds 9, as the 10th is loaded in the bore.

Ticking varries a lot, so you might want to get a micrometer and or good calipers, and test each asorted size you can untill a size works out, then of course only buy these thickness's as you deem fit for each gun.

Old jeans can work out for many sizes to find the size thart works best, since they tend to thin at the knee and get thicker to the high thigh. Just a cheap way to get cloth in a lot of thickness.

 

[dwave]

A 1 in 48 twist can use conicals. I use 200gr. Lee REAL bullets in my .45 with great group sizes, better than PRB. The 1in48 is a compromise twist, PRBs only twists are 1in66 (or around in that area) or slower. Slowest twist I have seen was a 1 in 72.

Are you pushing the PRBs down the barrel, or tapping them down with the ramrod?

 

[jr45]

Wow, I truly appreciate all the responses. I may have to get a book on muzzleloading 101. Based on the posted comments, I may have been loading them wrong.
-I would TRY to center the ball in the patch then again, the patch is oversized and covered most of the ball front and back.
-I would tap (up and down motion) the ball or conical down the barrel and when I felt that it seated, I would tap it a couple more hard times. I did see another muzzlelader sliding the ram rod down with both hands and not tapping. I think he was shooting sabots.
-I have never looked for the spent patch...I will next time.
-I can get pillow tacking from the wallyworld and I may give it a try.

 

[quigleysharps4570]

The 1:48 twist shoots conicals well out of that caliber rifle.
I would dump the replica and try some black and a wad over powder.
The wad will keep it from blowing patches if that's what's going on.
What conical and lube are you using?
I cut my patches at the muzzle when playing and carry a loading block when hunting.
Far as loading...just be consistent.

 

[Macmac]

Funny how we each do things a little different from the next guy, as my play usually is a time race, where seconds count, so I will cut the first patch by hand from a long sliced strip of patch, and then run to a target fire and load from the block running, to fire at the next target, meanwhile doing what ever else the game calls for.

Hunting, I load the same way, and carry the block for a fast follow up shot if I need to, but if I don't, I can waste time to let the deer lay down, and so load as I did the first time.

There is a lot I can't comment on as I shoot Goex and nothing else. i tried Pyrodex once in a rock lock and found it miserable to deal with and went right back to what worked good, and never looked back... I don't even know if that is the same stuff as it is now. Back then they called it Golden Powder, and that was before the inventer blew himself to bits.

 

[armedandsafe]

Because I can't get Holy Black in this area, I use the subs. I have had good results with all of the subs except the pellets (haven't opened the 777 yet, so can't say on that one.)

I have found that being a little fussy in loading technoque is what will make the difference in accuracy. Remember, people used to harvest squirrel and rabbit with those guns, so the accuracy can be achieved.

I found the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook to be my favorite to introduce a shooter to shootin' dirty.

Pops

 

[Wildfire]

Don't blame the powder.

Hey there:
I would not be so fast to blame the powder.
Cleaning between shots with a round ball gun is almost a must. Correct powder measuring is also a must. Check that gun over good , you may have a loose sight. The groups you describe are huge for that distance. Even the worst load out there should group better then that. The barrel could be jumping around in the stock, a sight loose, flinching, delay in bang , many factors can come into play. But when groups go that wide at that distance, I would not be blaming the powder just yet. Getting a group of several inches and then changing powders would make some sense, to try and find the sweet spot. But what I see is not a powder related problem.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

First, 1:48 twist is slow twist designed for patched round balls. Forget the conicals in those barrels.

Actually, as has been stated, 1:48 is fine for conicals, and is considered the beginning of "fast twist". Slow twists (meaning they tend to not stablize conicals) is about 1:60, and slower. I have a 1:66 that tumbles conicals like a football kicked for a field goal, but my 1:48 barrels are tack drivers with T/C maxi-hunters. (I prefer the roundball myself)

The problem with some Traditions and some Pedersoli barrels, is they are rifled for black powder projectiles, BUT are made with modern machines. So..., you get very nice, crisp, SHARP edges on the lands. If you cut the patching material as you load, it allows gas to creep around the sides of the projectile in an uneven fashion as it exits the muzzle. The uneven pressure nudges the ball just a tad..., so you hit ok out to 50 yards, but beyond, forget it. I had a Pedersoli barrel that made clover leafs out to 25 yards, and at 50 looked like buckshot.

You may need to take a few pieces of "green scrubbie" pot scrubber, and run them up and down the barrel with a cleaning rod, tight, to take the sharpness of the lands. Follow up with 4-0 steel wool and some water soluable engine valve lapping compound. Of course this is after you have inspected the patches, then inspect them as you go, until you stop the cutting.

If you're not cutting patches, and the patch/ball/powder combo is good, and you're firing from a tight position on a bench, then you need to have the crown on the muzzle checked.

Good luck.

LD