AD/ND from hammer?

[Carbonator]

Does anyone know of any unintentional discharges from an exposed hammer? For instance the thumb slipping off the hammer before it cocks, or a hammer getting snagged on somethng (like clothes) and releasing before cocked, and with enough force to strike and fire the round?

(Especially those of you who carry exposed hammers. )

 

[James Bondrock]

I am aware of many AD/NDs from single-action revolvers that follow the original Colt design. The firing pin, when the hammer is down, will actually touch the primer of the cartridge in the chamber, which is why you are not supposed to carry a cartridge in that chamber in the first place. If you do, and then the gun is dropped from a height of more than about three feet, the gun's balance is such that it will land butt down and strike the hammer, thereby discharging the gun. With other designs, I think you would also have to have had your finger on the trigger at the same time the hammer slipped or was pulled back for the gun to fire, unless it also had a mechanical malfunction. (You will forgive me if I did not try it for myself. ) In his book "Col. Askins on Pistols and Revolvers", Askins writes of a Colt Python (IIRC) hammer snagging on some brush and being "eared back" to full cock ("Senor, do you always carry that pistola cocked?"), but the gun did not fire because of it.

 

[Carbonator]

Thanks James. So with most modern hammered guns, you could even try to cause an AD by flicking the hammer, but without pulling the trigger the round would not go off?

I'd try it myself, but would rather one of you did instead.

 

[James Bondrock]

Double-action revolvers have various types of internal hammer blocks, so they should not be able to fire without also pulling the trigger. Automatic pistols with exposed hammers usually have inertia firing pins (these require that the hammer strike them with full force, i.e., starting from fully rearward), hammer safety notches (e.g., the half-cock notch on 1911 pistols), or trigger-activated firing pin blocks (e.g., Series 80 Colts, Glocks, SIGs).

 

[Carbonator]

So it would be safe to say that an S&W 386PD would be close to impossible to AD because of the hammer in the original situations?

 

[Jim March]

Both transfer bar and hammer-block systems will prevent ADs/NDs connected with hammer impacts, snags and inadvertant releases, so long as the "finger off trigger" safety drill is followed.

Some single action revolvers have transfer bar systems that are as effective as anything found on DA/DAO wheelguns. All Rugers post-1973 have such, and earlier are usually found retrofitted via Ruger's free transfer bar upgrade program. The Colt Cowboy is basically SAA-sized and has a transfer bar (and a poor rep); Beretta's new Stampede is the same basic concept but at least by first accounts, is executed better.

"True SAA clones" include the USAF Rodeo and such have NO internal safety (load it five up, drop hammer on an empty cylinder). Most Italian clones (AWA, Armi San Marco, the Ubertis except for the Stampede, Cimarrons, etc) must also be treated like an original SAA.

Freedom Arms 97 series have a transfer bar system as good as Ruger's. The 83 series has a hammer block; FA says it's not safe enough for fully loaded carry...I have no idea whether that's reality, or what FA's lawyers made 'em say.

DAs: S&W revised their hammer block system during WW2 to avoid accidental discharges. Any post-war gun is 100% safe...pre-war, well, I wouldn't CCW such a thing. Colt's system was quite good at least by the time the Python came along (1950s); dunno if earlier specimens had problems or not. All Charter Arms have Ruger-derived transfer bars (designer came over from Ruger), all Ruger DAs have rock-solid safeties, Tauruses and Rossis are OK although I'd check the functioning of the safety esp. on earlier models.

Transfer bars are theoretically slightly safer than hammer blocks but the difference is so miniscule I wouldn't worry about it. Hammer block systems can run with a mainspring about 20% - 25% lighter than what's needed for a transfer bar, which is why classic S&Ws can have nicer trigger feels than more recent specimens or Rugers.

The "revolver checkout thread" stickied to the revolver forum discusses how to make sure the internal safety of a revolver is working. The same test works on transfer bar and hammer-block systems.

 

[Carbonator]

Appreciated Jim! You two answered all my questions, plus a few more I didn't realize I had... Thanks.

 

[Jim March]

Cool.

It's worth running "the checkout" on guns you own, if for no other reason than to increase your confidence in it. I am a firm believer in having confidence in your gear; such belief (when grounded in reality) increases your personal confidence in a confrontation, which increases the chances that a predator (two legged or four) will run away with no shots fired.

 

[Matt G]

Note to those of y'all new to 1911's: one of the most dangerous ways to carry a 1911 is hammer down, on a loaded chamber. I've seen several people do this in the past. This rests the hammer on the inertial firing pin, and if the hammer spur is smacked hard enough, can drive the pin into the primer. The proper method of carrying a loaded 1911 is with the hammer back, safety on.

That is all.

 

[HABU]

Matt G is right on. I think that I was the last moron to employ the technique of carrying with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. It was all good until the time I went to drop the hammer under stress. DOH!

This was years ago and I havn't had a problem carrying C&L since.

(I havn't come out of the ND closet yet, but am peeking through the crack!)

 

[Standing Wolf]

It's worth running "the checkout" on guns you own, if for no other reason than to increase your confidence in it.

Amen! If I can push the hammer off full cock with my thumb, there's something wrong with the gun. People in gun shops give me mighty peculiar looks when I do that while looking at guns, but I figure that's their problem, not mine.

The rest of the revolver check out is worth running, as well, of course.

 

[rayra]

Carbonator, have experience with both, unfortunately.
Firing a friends Thompson-Contender. 10"(?) .44mag bbl fitted, while firing from a dueling-type pose, cocking while raising the weapon - thumb slipped off hammer when weapone rotated in my grip. ND, .44mag HP into the ground 6" from the toe of my boot.

A year later, the owner of that same piece shot himself in the upper thigh, snagging the hammer on his shirt while holstering in a cross-draw chest holster.
The weapon came to him with 3 bbls - .44mg, .223, .22lr. The .22lr was fitted with a scope. The scope and rings installed prompted the previous owner to install a clamp-on piece on the hammer-spur, providing an offset that allowed cocking the hammer. This offsetting piece was left in place during bbl / caliber swaps.
While hiking & hunting with his brother and another friend, he took a bead on a target, which fled over a ridgeline. He went to holster the piece, and snagged the hammer offset on the open neckline of his flannel shirt, partially cocking the T-C. Seating the T-C into the holster tugged it loose, firing the weapon. The .44mag HP blew out the bottom of the leather holster and three large portions plowed into his upper / inner thigh. His brother - an Army medic on Leave made a tourniquet. The friend ran like hell to a ranger station and they were able to obtain a rescue helicopter.

I never found out if the T-C pieces have anything like a half-cock stop or even if this is a common issue with T-C firearms. I've never gone near them since.

 

[jar]

Carbonator


Try this. After YOU have made sure that your S&W is unloaded, align the gun so that it is pointed in a safe direction but you can see the gap between the cylinder and the breachface. Pull the trigger and you will see the firing pin projected through the hole. Now for test two.

This time, cock the gun as in single action, but let the hammer slip before it gets fully cocked. Did the firing pin project throuogh the hole? On to test three.

Pull the hammer back to fully cocked. Holding the hammer, pull the trigger and begin to lower the hammer. Release the trigger and let the hammer slip. Did the firing pin project through the hole?

 

[Jim March]

Yup.

The equivelent test in a Contender or most semi-autos is the "pencil test". You can't see sideways to the firing pin on these, but you can stick a pencil down the barrel with the gun UNLOADED. Use an unsharpened pencil and put the flat wooden end in first, or use a similar dowel rod that's at least half the bore width and longer than the barrel.

Do these tests with the gun UNLOADED by you, visual inspection!

Push the hammer while down (decocked), and the pencil shouldn't move, finger off trigger.

Partially cock it and then let the hammer slip, finger off trigger. Again: pencil shouldn't move.

Cock it and pull the trigger, and it'll spit the pencil out. Normal. Can also be kinda fun, but NOT at humans.

Now do that again and hold the trigger back. Stick the pencil back in; as you release the trigger, you should see the pencil retract a bit (the same depth as the firing pin protrudes, a couple millimeters at most).

You can do all these same checks on a revolver holding it up sideways to a light source and looking directly at the firing pin, no pencil needed...UNloaded gun of course! You'll have to hold the gun up sideways with a light source behind it (normal sunlight or indoor light source is fine).

 

[BluesBear]

I have never been able to get a non-series 80 1911 style pistol to fire by hitting the hammer spur. (And yes I have tried.) Nor have I ever known of anyone to successfully accomplish it either. Hitting the hammer or dropping it on the hammer forces the firing pin away from the primer.

However, with the hammer down, dropping it on the muzzle WILL cause it to fire. Some people say that a stronger firing pin will prevent this, but all it does if make it safer for short falls. Hitting the floor from shoulder holster height WILL cause it to fire even with a stronger FP spring.

A series 80 or 90 Colt however IS safe to carry with the hammer down, even if dropped. The firing pin is blocked until the trigger is pulled. And like a revolver if you start to lower the hammer and release the trigger the FP is locked, plus there's the safety notch if it slips.

 

[Matt G]

A series 80 or 90 Colt however IS safe to carry with the hammer down, even if dropped.

Unless the owner or a previous owner of that pistol, like so many of us, have decided to remove what we feel are unnecessary extraneous parts (which JMB didn't design to be there). Know the pistol you're operating, inside and out.

 

[buford1]

James Bondrock
If your 1911 style gun has the firing pin resting on the primer. The firing pin is out of spec and needs repaired.

 

[ceetee]

A former instructor used this variation of the "pencil test" to demonstrate a revolver's safety:

1) Verify that the revolver is not loaded; close the cylinder and cock the hammer.

2) Pointing the barrel straight up, drop the pencil down the barrel.

3) Using some type of striker (he used a heavy keyring), strike the trigger so that the hammer is released, but the trigger isn't pulled to the rear and held.

The pencil should not move. Next, go back to step one, only this time pull the trigger with your finger. The pencil should jump...

 

[Omnicron]

I know one state capitol building that has a hole in a door somewhere in the basement right now due to a poor hammer control related accidental discharge. Its seems that a gentleman that was working guard duty in that building had brought a 1911 to work with him that he had traded for. He got a real good deal on it since it was having problems. As best I recall from talking to him, you could do one of two things: Load a round or eject the clip. Otherwise the gun would jam up completely ( I didn't fully question him on this as I was too busy laughing when he got done telling this story.) He had brought the gun and several of his tools to work with him in the hopes that he could easily resolve the problems the gun was having. After a brief work session, he had chambered a live round only to discover that the gun was still having the same problems. As he went to decock the gun as he had to remove the slide to get the round out, his thumb slipped off the hammer, due to sweating from working on the gun and some other unknow factors, discharging a round through a copper door. After regaining his hearing and recovering from the shock, he quickly assessed the damage and determined that no one else was around to hear or witness the incident. I was wondering why when I handed him my M1911A1 Remmington Govm't model his supervisor kept asking me over and over again was it unloaded. I'll have to ask him sometime if the hammer was at full cock or not.

 

[fallingblock]

The Model 97 Winchester......

As a young teenager on the farm, one of our shooting challenges was to throw a stone onto the old barn roof, which would usually result in the emergence of a few pigeons through the loft window.
Sort of like 'farmboy skeet'

After one good fast string of three pigeons with four shots on a warm August day, I let the hammer down (to half-cock) on shell #5 in the chamber, but the thumb was sweaty and the hammer slipped. Luckily that pattern of #6 shot went unnoticed on the weathered barn siding.

As an Army armorer, I knew of a Lieutenant in our unit experiencing a N/D with a 'condition two' holstered 1911-A1 by tossing it onto his bunk.
It bounced (he could make a tight bunk ) and landed on the floor muzzle down. The event ruined the holster, his composure, and the C.O.'s up 'til then uneventful day.

 

[thefitzvh]

Damn LTs