ND/AD,,,you make the call...

[Edward429451]

I agree with the UD conclusion.

Doing this sort of thing at a range while observing the rules precludes the ND conclusion, I think. After all the dry practice at home, you just gotta go live at some point! Going to the range was not negligent. Nor practicing live. Disobeying #'s 2, 3, or 4 would have been negligent.

YMMV.

 

[Navy joe]

ND.

Condition I or CIII with BHPs and 1911s. Pick one. Condition II should be technically known as asking for it.

As you point out the manual is quite useless unless you are a Browning exec. attempting to CYA.

Our coffee cups warn us of hot liquids now, how much longer before the slides of our pistols are etched "Caution, this end projects little hard fast objects that really hurt. Point this end at usee and other end at user."

Downrange is always a good thing.

My BHP AD involved one that decided it was time to start doubling. They have a really fast cyclic rate.

 

[280PLUS]

"Caution, this end projects little hard fast objects that really hurt."

ROFLMAO

 

[geekWithA.45]

Unintentional Discharge: "Anytime your firearm discharges without 100% of your intention for it to do so."

AD: Mechanical Error
ND: Operator Error

AD/ND Debate: A debate centering around value judgements concerning operator culpability. As a general rule, the firearms community holds high standards for ourselves, and thus the debate quickly resolves towards the ND side of the spectrum.

IMO, it's a murky argument with respect to decocking an SA pistol. I subscribe to the notion that decocking an SA on a chambered round is not a good administrative handling technique, as this pattern has lead to a number of UD's.

Furthermore it's poor user interface design in general to ascribe two functions to the same control, in this case, the trigger.

In this case, the two functions in question are entirely polar opposites! I mean, how far can you get from "Fire and destroy anything in front of the muzzle" to "configure the device to reduce the chance firing and destroying whatever is in front of the muzzle"?

I suspect that the historical acceptance of this design is an artifact of the revolver's operating system.

 

[P95Carry]

how much longer before the slides of our pistols are etched "Caution, this end projects little hard fast objects that really hurt. Point this end at usee and other end at user."

Navy - I have even wondered, not entirely facetiously about when that might arrive!! ..... like 280 said .... ROTFLMAO!!

 

[OF]

ND. The gun worked the way it was designed. Only because 280Plus managed to have the thing pointed in the right direction is this a learning experience and not a court case.

I think lowering the hammer on a single-action pistol with a round in the chamber is a bad idea any way you slice it. Even with the muzzle downrange, if you slipped and the half-cock notch didn't grab the hammer you could do a real number on your thumb along with your shorts.

Maybe it would be safer to run that drill without the decocking segment. Just keep a bunch of mags on the table with 2 rounds in them and reload the gun between grabs.

- Gabe

 

[280PLUS]

i agree on the design aspects...

so it seems we might tend to agree that this type of pistol is not the best design for a ccw in terms of speed vs safety,

unless we were to accept the glaring hazards created by carrying it with a round in the chamber vs having to rack the gun before firing in a sudden bad situation

continuing to learn...trying to work in between...



just for matters of clarification , i did not "manage" to keep the muzzle safe, i purposely and conciously did so, at all times throughout

i may look dumb but i try my best not to be

 

[AK103K]

i personally want a ccw that i can pull and shoot, no cocking, no safety to worry about releasing in a panic situation, fool proof protection, thats why i carry the revolver,

Nothing is fool proof, as your little accident shows. The HP/1911's when carried cocked and locked are very fast and natural to get into action. There is no "panic" involved when you have practiced to the point that its an unconscious action. I've carried a 1911 daily for almost 30 years in Condition 1 and never had any problem. Whats the point in carrying a gun if its not loaded and ready to go?

as far as size/concealability goes, i work outside and climb a lot and get myself into pretty tight spots at times and in summer wear jeans and a tee shirt, a 1911 style pistol is not what you want to carry for this, believe me, beepers on my belt have caused me to get hung up and if you're up high this can be really not fun, so,,,

I work outside also. I get into places most people would balk at going. I crawl through manholes, pipes, greenbriars, thickets, up over rocks, buildings, etc, and never worried about my pistol, or for that matter, the double reload, leatherman, and cell phone on my belt either . Although I have broke a couple of Nextels. I wear jeans, a tee shirt, and an untucked oxford shirt most times in the summer, sweatshirts in the winter. With a good kydex IWB holster and a good belt, its easy and comfortable to conceal a full sized 1911 or Commander without any trouble. I find them easier to conceal than the 2" snubbies and little pocket guns. At least I'm a lot less self concious of the 1911. That little pistol in my pocket feels like its just standing out and everyone is looking at it.

 

[Mute]

ND. It happens. Some have said there are only 2 types of gun users, those who've had ND's and those who will. I'm glad you're ok and no one else was hurt.

so it seems we might tend to agree that this type of pistol is not the best design for a ccw in terms of speed vs safety

Not quite. This system is not the best for someone who isn't willing to put in enough training and practice so that the manual of arms for this type of setup is second nature.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I don't see any good reason to resort to condition 2 carry.

 

[OF]

Condition 1 for carry!

I used to carry a USP in condition 1, and as soon as my new holster shows up here I'll be carrying a 1911 in condition 1 (switching from a Glock).

Cocked and Locked: Do it for the Children.

- Gabe

 

[280PLUS]

ok, nothing is fool proof

but every step i can eliminate from pulling to shooting is a step i don't have to worry about fouling up at a critical moment

maybe panic wasn't the right term, maybe "under pressure" would make more sense.

according to the manufacturer. cocked and locked is not recommended, carrying with a round in the chamber with the hammer in ANY position is again, not recommended

i'm assuming they have reasons for this

therefore, according to the browning, the only way recommended to carry their pistol is with an empty chamber and with the hammer down

this necessitates adding the cocking procedure to the firing sequence, if youre following their recommendations, and a step to foul up if youre pressured,

your hand could slip off the slide and not chamber a round, e.g. no matter how much you've practiced, its still possible

me, no i havent practiced with it enough yet to feel proficient enough to do everything right under pressure.

with my snubbie, all i have to do is pull the trigger, if it doesnt go bang, all i got to do is pull the trigger again and hope it was a bad round and not a broken gun...

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Question: why were you decocking under stress?

 

[280PLUS]

looking at the manual more...

i find it vague and contradictory.

Andrew, i was practicing the live decock because the manual instructs you in the procedure, i wasn't under any stress while doing this, maybe you misunderstood, or i misunderstand your question

a few more excerpts:

pg 9 "Lowering the Hammer"

(At this point the manual has the pistol in full cock with a round in the chamber, there is no indication that the just cocked gun has been cleared prior to this sequence)

(1 - 6 describes the procedure i posted earlier, then)

#7 "Ease the hammer against the inertia firing pin. The hammer is now in the dropped position--the recommended carrying position." (no red capital letters disclaimer following this to say"Do not carry with a round in the chamber")

pg 10

#5 (it tells you how to chamber a round after you insert the mag with the slide forward, action open)

"then, with your thumb, depress the slide stop and let the slide spring forward, feeding the first round from the magazine into the chamber. This is the maximum ready position."

(next, in red capitals) "Caution the pistol is now cocked and can be fired by simply sqeezing the trigger"
(then, get THIS!)

"Unless shooting is imminent, immediately place the pistol in a safer status by lowering the hammer to the dropped position"

(nothing about NOT carrying with a live round chambered at this point)

anyhow,

Condition Codes, from "The Marine Battle Skills Training Handbook"

Condition 1 "To place a weapon in condition 1, a round must be in position to fired and the safety must be on"

(does this mean hammer cocked also?)

Condition 2 " To place a weapon in condition 2, a round must be in position to be fired, the weapon's action must be closed, and the hammer must be forward "

(this would be brownings recommended carry condition, although they don't recommend carrying with a round in the chamber?)

Condition 3 "To place a weapon in condition 3, ammunition is in place to be chambered, the chamber is empty, the action is closed and the safety is on"

FWIW

Condition 4 - To place a weapon in condition 4, all ammunition is removed, the chamber is empty, the action is closed, the safety is on."

So in this thread i'm hearing carry in Condition 1 or 3 only NEVER 2, yet the manual is telling me carry in "a safer status" Condition 2 "unless shooting is imminent"



me? i'm not crazy about carrying a pistol cocked with a round in the chamber and the safety on, i was taught to NEVER rely on the safety and to me it appears that this is what is happening in this particular scenario (Condition 1)

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Condition one is the proper and safest way to carry a single action auto. (Safe as in less likely to shoot yourself, and safe as in you can shoot others who will do you harm more readily)


If you don't feel comfortable carrying the gun that way, sell it and get a double action auto.

 

[280PLUS]

S-S-S-Sell the BHP??





now, we don't have to go that far...

i'm just looking for clarification here

you folks here that carry these say Condition 1, the manual says Condition 2 but with the disclaimer of not carrying with a round in the chamber to cover themselves

if the good folks here say condition 1, then condition 1 it is, condition 3 just adds the step of cocking to the sequence.

it just goes against what ive previously been taught about gun safety

like i said earlier, i don't carry this gun for various reasons, i'm perfectly happy with my snubbie for ccw

i bought it because i wanted something a little heavier in the safe for homeland defense purposes should the need arise, (thats why i got the bushy too)

better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, especially if theres a run on the gun shops in an emergency. you know there would be

so if you see me lugging it around you will know that the S has really HTF and its being carried in condition 1

which i will now practice firing from instead of Condition 2

 

[Zak Smith]

I admit skipping much of the discussion here, but as a big fan of the BHP, I have to add:

1. What the heck are you doing carrying a BHP with the hammer down?

Carry it cocked and locked, man. It isn't going to bite you! (Or fire, for that matter.)

Modern BHPs (the MKIII generation starting in the early 90's) have a firing pin disconnect physically preventing firing pin movement unless the trigger has been pulled, much like the "Series 80" Colts.

I admit this point often degrades into a "religious" argument, but I don't think any pistol without a dedicated decock lever should be carried or operated in a manner than requires decocking - ever.

2. Bulky? The BHP is considered a "full size" handgun, but it is very slim and compact for a 13+1 (or 15+1 with the right mags) 9mm. It's smaller than the Glock 19 or the USP Compact, for example. To make it "seem" less bulky, replace the factory grips with a nice set of Spegel, Ahrends, Navidrex Micarta, or Uncle Mike's thin grips.

For a CCW pistol, or just for shooting, I've gone from a USP to some Glocks (sub-compact #27 and compact #19/23), to some CZ's (full-size and compact) but settled on the BHP. Its thin profile and short grip make it comfortable to carry in a good IWB holster, and 15+1 of 9mm is sufficient...

-z

 

[280PLUS]

zak...

to answer your question read through the thread to see what browning's manual says.

it is in direct contradiction with what is being said here by thr members.

i was just following the directions given by browning in the operation of the pistol

again, i do not carry this weapon as a rule for the reasons explained elsewhere in the thread

but if and when i do it will be "cocked and locked" just like everybody is telling me it should be.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

the reason why us and the manual disagree is because de don't have lawyers breathing down our necks.



condition one is the safest way to carry a single action auto with a thumb safety.

 

[Zak Smith]

This thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22787

contains pictures of one of my BHPs. You can see how some nice Spegel thin grips make the pistol considerably less bulky. E.g.



-z

 

[Edward429451]

280, I understand your apprehension about carrying it condition 1. I too had apprehension like that when I first got my single action Colt, 18 years ago.

What I did for awhile (around the house) was to carry a primed empty case in the chamber, cocked & locked. I did that until I began to feel stupid about doing it and switched to a live cartridge. It lasted about two weeks before the change over. That same pistol has been cocked and locked pretty much ever since. Two times in 18 yrs I've found the safety had disengaged itself, while performing strenuous activity. Never had a mishap.

As long as you never violate rule #2 and #3, you are safe. Its all in your head. Of course the manufacturers are going to say "Oh no, no bullets in the chamber!" to cover their liability. Thats all that is.

Condition 1 will not slow you down one whit on readiness, etc., in fact its probably faster than the DA first shot. I practiced my draws from leather to release the safety at about a 45 degree angle as its coming up (while finger is still outside of the guard). I dont even have to think about it now, it just automatic and just as fast as if it were cocked and unlocked. Also train to engage safety at the same point on the downstroke towards holster after firing or whatever.

My IWB holster has the strap that snaps across the back of slide blocking hammer to gun for added safety (peace of mind).

You need to log some hours cond. 1, bro. Spring for a holster.

 

[280PLUS]

got it!

thanx all!!

got a lot out of this one!

except what does IWB stand for?

 

[Zak Smith]

IWB = "Inside the Waistband".

It refers to a holster that holds the pistol inside the waistband of your pants, instead of outside ("OWB").

Here's an example from the Milt Sparks website of an IWB model, the Watch-Six:

-z

 

[280PLUS]

thanx,,,

i kind of thought so but i like to be sure, i thought it might be a brand name

hmmm, that could work, nice pic

i've been leaning in the direction of an under the left arm shoulder holster and cross drawing, again, i never bought this one for a ccw, but now that i see this holster it becomes more of an option.

you cover that with only a tee shirt?

i like the idea of the strap between the hammer and pin, it makes me feel better

as you can see i'm still working at being proficient in the proper handling of the weapon in a carry/defense type situation, now that i am proficient at hitting the target with it

it'll all come together, i just want to make sure it comes together correctly

i can't believe that stinkin' manual, i'd say the manual is more dangerous than the firearm



"VERY IMPORTANT: Carefully read this manual before using your new Browning firearm."

 

[Zak Smith]

My standard CCW setup these days is the BHP (the one posted above) in the Milt Sparks Watch-Six IWB holster... basically as pictured but a BHP instead of a 1911. (The "butt" of the BHP's grip is a little shorter than the 1911 grip, which makes it a little easier to conceal.)

To answer your question: Yes, it conceals fine under a t-shirt. I often just wear an untucked t-shirt for concealment. Alternatively, sometimes I tuck the t-shirt under the holster (ie, between the holster and my skin) and then wear a Patagonia-style untucked button-up shirt over the top.

Some holsters (e.g. Sparks VersaMax2) are designed so that you can tuck in a shirt over it, too.

With a sweatshirt, fleece, or light coat, a good quality OWB holster can even be concealed - my favorite is the
Milt Sparks NP-1.

As a general comment, a good thick sturdy belt is vital to comfortably carrying in a holster. I prefer the "Instructor Belt" from The Wilderness Tactical, but many prefer a nice thick leather gunbelt. 1.5" is a good width.

There's no need for a strap between the hammer and firing pin. The MKIII BHP cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled.. even if the hammer "slips off the sear."

-z

 

[280PLUS]

very nice...

i'll be looking into it

thanx zak