AHSA Pro-Gun Pro-Obama

[RPCVYemen]

Really? I believe they have endorsed several pro-gun Democrats for congress and senate.

Did I mistakenly type "exclusively" when I meant to type "generally"?

My understanding is that AHSA was founded as a Democratic alternative to the NRA. If you disagree with that, then you and TexasRifleman need to tussle. He's very anti AHSA, and he agrees with me on that point:

AHSA's roots are as a Democratic organization.
Yes, AGS and HCI

Mike

 

[JImbothefiveth]

that an anti-RKBA organization would have to publicly advocate pro-RKBA for all time.

Is a message that says ban .50 calibers, ban private sales without having to pay a $30-$50 fee, and ban anything with a bayonet lug or 11 round magazine "pro-RKBA"? Please answer the question this time!

BTW "pro-gun pro-Obama" doesn't mean Obama is pro-gun. For instance, I'm anti death-penalty and pro-gun, that doesn't mean the pro-gun politician I support is anti-death-penalty.

My understanding is that AHSA was founded as a Democratic alternative to the NRA.

The NRA is not Democrat or republican, they are pro-gun. It's just that the Democrats are usually anti-gun, so the NRA usually endorses republicans, because they don't want anti-gun politicians to get elected.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Let's agrees that's a complete and utter lie. Haven't we shown pretty conclusively that if they are in fact lying, the must in the end keep lying - or they lose the game of influence and power?

No, we have not.

You keep begging the question, asking us to accept at the outset that AHSA is a broad-based, popular organization that relies on its membership for financing and support.

We have shown again and again that is not the case. AHSA is a small organization, funded by fatcats, and pretending to be the voice of gun owners.

 

[Lightninstrike]

200 of 'em ain't going to influence any election.....Its the press they need.

# One day in the future, all those deluded members wake up and discover that what they thought was a box of Cheerios was in fact an AWB.

 

[SuperNaut]

What does that have to do with Occam's razor?

You've been laying out a series of quasi-logical propositions and asking us which choice makes sense. That essentially requires the use of Occam's Razor. Now the problem is that you are pretending that the quasi-logical propositions are illuminating in some way. When in fact we already know that the AHSA is an anti-2a org populated by anti-2a board members. Not to mention that you are leaving out all sorts of other possibilities:

1. Mr. Schoenke is a dupe

2. Mr. Schoenke is a useful idiot

3. The board is earnest but ignorant

4. The board has rejected their earlier efforts and associations with anti-2a orgs (LOL)

I could go on, but such a list is in the end pointless. The AHSA states their anti-2a stances right on their website for all to read and their past affiliation, donations, organizations are a matter of public record.

There are no unknowns to illuminate.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

200 of 'em ain't going to influence any election.....Its the press they need.

It's the press they're after. They present themselves as a "reasonable alternative to the NRA" and the press treats them that way.

 

[RPCVYemen]

BTW "pro-gun pro-Obama" doesn't mean Obama is pro-gun. For instance, I'm anti death-penalty and pro-gun, that doesn't mean the pro-gun politician I support is anti-death-penalty.

This is an extremely important point, and answers an earlier post I haven't gotten back to about why Ray Schoenke might support some Democratic candidates that are anti-gun.

The fact that you support a politician who is not anti-death penalty does not imply in any way that you are anti-death penalty. It implies that you live in a democracy where you have to pick on candidate or another. Since candidates endorse a plethora of issues, you will in all likelihood have to support or vote for a candidate with whom you disagree on at least one issue.

To my mind, the bumper sticker implies nothing about Obama, it implies that I am pro-gun, and I am pro-Obama. Which I am.

Mike

 

[JImbothefiveth]

The NRA doesn't endorse anti-gun republicans, but the AHSA endorses anti-gun Democrats. Clearly, they are concerned about some things more than gun rights. If they are more concerned about those things, they should be honest and say what they are, and call themselves the "American liberal association" or "American gun control" association, but they should stop masquerading as a pro-gun group.

It implies that you live in a democracy where you have to pick on candidate or another. Since candidates endorse a plethora of issues, you will in all likelihood have to support or vote for a candidate with whom you disagree on at least one issue.

That's correct, but if I started an organization called "Americans against the death penalty", who's sole purpose was to fight the death penalty, they shouldn't endorse someone based on their stance on guns. If it did, it should be called "Americans against the death penalty and for guns" or "shooters against the death penalty"

 

[samtron]

He's a troll.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Is a message that says ban .50 calibers, ban private sales without having to pay a $30-$50 fee, and ban anything with a bayonet lug or 11 round magazine "pro-RKBA"? 'Cause that's what the AHSA advocates.

 

[RPCVYemen]

You keep begging the question, asking us to accept at the outset that AHSA is a broad-based, popular organization that relies on its membership for financing and support.

I haven't asked you to accept anything like that. You are the one who argued that if the AHSA public and private policy did not they would lose membership and funding, right?

You said that if the publicly advocated pro-RKBA policies and were in fact anti-RKBA they would lose their "sugar daddies", right?

Mike

Mike

 

[Vern Humphrey]

We should thank him for coming here to enlighten us and taking time off from his real job -- which is hiding under a bridge and waiting for the Three Billy Goats Gruff.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

You said that if the publicly advocated pro-RKBA policies

How is a message that says ban .50 calibers, ban private sales without having to pay a $30-$50 fee, and ban anything with a bayonet lug or 11 round magazine "pro-RKBA"?

Still don't want to answer, I guess.

Just accept the AHSA for what it is: the Brady campaign disguised as fudds.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

if they endorse an AWB ban, it's members will know that, and will leave. I know I will.

Well, good news - you'll have extra money in your pocket, because you won't be paying for for their dues. I'll guarantee you that they'll endorse any and every gun ban that comes down the pike, just as their website implied that it would, before they took the language down after succumbing to the heat. But I wish you luck and hope that you are right - I would be pleasantly surprised. The ONLY question is how long it will take for the issue to come up - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 years? Or more.

And I take exception to your characterization of the NRA being mostly Republicans. While that may be technically true, that's not at all what they're about. And certainly not true in my case. There's no cause and effect there. This happens simply because so many people of the D party choose to run on anti-freedom platforms. It's the chicken and the egg, except that in this case, we KNOW which came first - the D party members chose anti-freedom positions BEFORE the NRA took a stance against them, and favored their pro-gun opponents (who just happen to be - usually but not always- members of the R party).

The AHSA is not any more of a substitute for NRA than death is a substitute for life.

If you want an alternative to NRA which is actually supportive of the RKBA, and pretty a-political, here's your answer (not AHSA):

http://www.saf.org/

The NRA doesn't endorse anti-gun republicans, but the AHSA endorses anti-gun Democrats.

EXACTLY; thank you. That one truism says all that you need to know about the situation, to debunk the idea that they are a "pro-Democrat yet pro-RKBA alternative to NRA".

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Well, good news - you'll have extra money in your pocket, because you won't be paying for for their dues.

He'll keep on paying. If what he said about leaving was true, he would have done it a while back.

 

[SuperNaut]

Besides with the inflated membership that the AHSA claims, Mike represents about 20 members. He probably feels a sense of obligation and responsibility...

 

[seale]

I just ordered that free sticker. It will go on the bottom inside of my trash can when it arrives

 

[benEzra]

AHSA's roots are as a Democratic organization.

Actually, their roots are as a "Third Way" Democratic Leadership Council organization. Unless the AHSA has since moved, they are even in the same building as the DLC.

The DLC being, of course, the communitarian/corporatist group within the party that foisted the ban-nonhunting-guns jihad onto the party at large in the early 90's.

It was the DLC that rammed the AWB to the top of the legislative agenda, and they blamed the resulting backlash on a perceived failure to be seen as pro-hunting enough, as if most gun owners are hunters.

IMO, AHSA serves to provide cover for DLC types who want to have their AWB, .50 bans, ammo bans, etc. wile still calling thmselves "pro-2ndA".

Could the AHSA become pro-gun? Certainly. Are they now? I don't believe so, and I am NOT a repub.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

as if most gun owners are hunters.

Actually, according to polls somewhere between 2004 and 2008, a little over half of gun owners own guns for hunting. A little more than than own guns for target shooting, and the most common reason was for protection from crime. So most gun owners have guns for self-defense, hunting, and
target shooting.

 

[caseypj]

RPCVYemen, we had this discussion a few months ago with you. I'm convinced you're employed by the AHSA at this point, Ray's Wife gave $2500 to the brady campaign on 10/1/04 AND sat on their board of directors.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think he just wants to advance a liberal agenda, at the price of the RKBA.

 

[cbsbyte]

In before the lock.

 

[Robocop]

"Could the AHSA become pro-gun? Certainly. Are they now? I don't believe so, and I am NOT a repub."

The AHSA could become pro-gun if enough of them did a repeat of the Cincinnati reforms the NRA experienced.

 

[Geneseo1911]

I'm amazed how desperately a couple people on this board cling to AHSA and the idea that Obama is pro-gun, despite the mountain of evidence otherwise. Almost as desperately as I cling to my guns and religion.

If you support Obama, that's cool, that's your right, but don't be naive about it.

 

[JoseM]

After reading this I'm convinced that either...
1) You are an extremely prideful man that can't own up to the fact that you backed the wrong horse (i.e. made a huge mistake in judging an organization before you joined)
2) A troll that truly does have the ASHA's agenda in mind and trying to bring people over to the "dark side" with you.
or...
3) An extremely dense person

There has been numerous postings/links showing how ASHA are not pro-gun. Simply putting a pro-gun name onto this organization does not make it pro-gun. And having pro-gun sounding name will catch people's attention especially when Obama was running for president. The general public hears that some "gun group" backed Obama, therefore Obama was pro-2nd...mission accomplished. High membership not required, just the headlines (and bumperstickers).