All my dad's loads are over max.

[Trey Veston]

My dad is what I would consider an expert in reloading, big game hunting, and fine rifles. He has given me three exceptional hunting rifles over the years. The first a Model 70 XTR Featherweight in .257 Roberts back in 1981. It was my first hunting rifle and I used it to kill my first deer, my first antelope, and my first elk. Then a custom pre-`64 Model 70 in .35 Whelen in the 90's, then another custom pre-`64 Model 70 in .30-06 Ackley Improved last Christmas.

With every rifle comes a box or two of handloads that he developed for that rifle for hunting.

I didn't get into reloading until a few years ago, so I just used whatever ammo he gave me without question.

Now that I'm a reloader, I have been looking up the load data he has written on the boxes of ammo and discovered that every single load he's developed is over the max listed.

With the .257 Roberts, he is over by 1.5 grains. With the .35 Whelen, it is 2 grains. With the .30-06 AI, it is 5 grains.

All of these rifles have been fired with said ammo and there have been no issues. However, the two earliest loads are 20 and 30 years old now and I'm a bit worried to fire them.

I recently sighted in the .257 Roberts last week with ammo listed as having been loaded in 1983 and has 50 grains of 4831 pushing a 100 grain bullet. Max is 49. His 115gr loads are using 47.5 grains. Max is 46.

No issues other than noticeably more kick than the factory Hornady ammo I had found.

I know that with pistol loads, this much overloading is dangerous, but with rifles, and pre-64 actions, I assume it is safe? I've got dies for all the rifles now and will begin developing my own loads for them. I was hoping to just use his data, but it is all over max listed and the same powder and bullets are no longer available.

Do I dare use up the rest of his ammo for the cases, or just put them on the shelf for mementos?

 

[Trashyshoots]

I'm no expert so take this with a grain of large salt, but those loads might have been in the green in older manuals. I've noticed some of my manuals I inherited from my father in law had some spicey 44 mag and 357 mag loads that were above new published max loads. Again, take with a large grain of salt because I do not load (yet) myself.

 

[Steelworker]

How do the primers look after you shoot the rounds? If they are flattened much or flowing out, then I think I’d work up my own loads.

You might find a load that is more accurate with less recoil.

 

[Trey Veston]

Gratuitous pic of rounds for the three rifles...

 

[edwardware]

My dad is what I would consider an expert in reloading. . .

If he was a Type 2 handloader, then gain the skills yourself, work up to his loads, and find out

Your cited recipes vs book maximum are pretty pedestrian in the world of careful handloaders squeezing maximum velocity from their rifles. Also normal was the practice of stepping back 5% when starting a new (or very old) batch of powder (primers, brass, etc), so don't go loading more of those recipes without working up first.

 

[LoonWulf]

To be honest most of my loads are over book max, but they were well tested to get there. I'm sure your dad went thru the same (or similar) steps. I would also go back and redo his work ups before using his loads, just to make sure they are safe, and sane with the components you have on hand NOW.

I've had some of the older manuals, and I'd agree that the loads have changed over the years. Components have changed over the years (and lot to lot) as well, so just saying "well it's safe in THIS manual, so it must be good" or "know safe load, in this gun" can a dangerous proposition.
Actually I've found that hodgdons data for the new IMR Endurons, to often be hotter than my guns can tolerate.

My only real pieces of advice are if your going to play at the top end are be observant and cautious, and drop back and work up if you have to make components substitutions, or open a new batch of whatever's.
I've seen enough differences in case capacity to cause pressure problems 3 times.

Just as a note, the only load that would actually make me pause is 5gr over a max charge in the 06AI. The AI version of the 06 only get about 5% more volume, so in my experience your not usually more than 3-4gr over max before running out of space, or hitting pressure signs. Dosent mean you CANT get to 5, just that it's high enough that I would take notice.

 

[Thomasss]

What was done back then is far different than what is done now. Powders formulations have changed over the years. Your dad could have been loading WW II surplus powder. 4831 is a very forgiving powder. Jack O'Connor published an article in Sports A Field magazine once that was 5 or 6 grains over Max in 30.06 with 4831 powder. And the magazine made him retract the load back to Lyman's maximum. Now, Jack had a custom built 30.06 and his gun could handle such a load. You shot your dads loads before. Ever have a sticky bolt? Ever look at shells or primers? I have a friend that loads IMR 4350 .2 grains over max in a Model 70, .270, 130 grain SP. And they shoot just fine. I just stand 10 feet away when he pulls the trigger. LOL But he only loads virgin brass and a specific primer and seats his bullets at Lyman's specs. I don't load max, but I do shoot range dropped shells, vary bullet depth, and shoot hotter primers. So who is safer? But we both work up our loads and check for pressure signs. Your dad was a smart man. Do you trust him? I wouldn't load his recipes today, but back then?

 

[mcb66]

Over the years, some manuals have become much more conservative. His loads may have been hot but ok when he worked them up.

 

[Walkalong]

A lot of the old loads were a bit stout (over max today)/questionable. Better testing today gives us safer loads.

Just because a load hasn’t blown up a rifle, yet, doesn’t make it “safe”.

 

[MEHavey]

Just because a load hasn’t blown up a rifle, yet, doesn’t make it “safe”.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

Question: Do either you or your Dad have access to Quickload AND a chronograph?

 

[Charlie98]

A lot of the old loads were a bit stout (over max today)/questionable. Better testing today gives us safer loads.

Just because a load hasn’t blown up a rifle, yet, doesn’t make it “safe”.

Aside from something terrible like personal injury from a firearm blowing up, I wouldn't take the risk of wrecking a firearm that had personal value to me, as I suspect your rifles are to you. As others have mentioned... things change... powder, bullets, primers... and the testing methods and data arrived with them. Not only would I NOT fire any more of those cartridges, I would just start in the basement and rework loads for each of those firearms.

 

[BBarn]

Most of the loads published today are pressure tested and held below a pressure level established by SAAMI. And most guns today are designed to operate with ammunition complying with SAAMI pressure levels. Testing methods and equipment are more accurate today as well.

Prior to the above, other methods were often used to establish maximum loads. And loads established with the earlier methods may not meet the current SAAMI pressure standards.

Safety factors are built into guns and this is demonstrated by the use of proof loads. The use of ammunition designed for the gun (both SAAMI for example) will lead to a long firearm life, wearing out barrels or various parts before catastrophic failure. But operation at higher than designed pressures can lead to premature catastrophic failure.

 

[Offfhand]

I have been looking up the load data he has written on the boxes of ammo and discovered that every single load he's developed is over the max listed.

What reference(s) are you using to determine what "max" loads are?

 

[FROGO207]

With my reloads I usually find at least two distinct accuracy nodes. I find the lower one is wider (thus mord forgiving) and easier on the barrel, shooter, and propellant usage. Shooting at something under 500 YDS the speed difference will not matter.

 

[murf]

you have two custom rifles and a "bob". the bob is way under pressure for the winchester action. the two custom rifles may have custom long throat chambers. ask him.

luck,

murf

 

[PWC]

Do you have the load manuals he used? Most old manuals had higher values than current manuals for the same powders. Powders have improved as jave the methods of measuring pressure. Yeah, yeah, and so did the lawyer input.

You ask the questipn out of caution. I would honor my father by saving a few and locking them away with the load data and a caution, where they could not be mixed in and shot by someone else.

If you shoot them, you will have to reload with new mfg powder and you will have to develop new loads anyway, so why not start fresh.

 

[whughett]

Apparently you have fired some of this Ammo, I’m assuming rounds from each batch and nothing has presented any worries for you, until, until you read loading manuals that created doubt. So at this point tried and proven Ammo is now suspect. What price piece of mind.? You’d have to have faith that dad followed the rules and developed safe loads. Perhaps in this case that axiom” never fire another’s hand loads” applies, which would dictate, break it all down, recover bullets brass and primer and dump the powder.

Actually Id fire them until pressure signs indicated otherwise. But that’s just me.

 

[WVRJ]

Max loads listed could have changed over the years,as several have mentioned already.I seriously doubt that you'll have any problems with the loads,but I would be very cautious and look for any pressure signs.In 1990,Myself and two hunting buddies bought 3 Remington 700FS rifles at the same time.I was the one they both trusted to load ammo for them,so I took on the task of finding one load that all 3 rifles liked.I used all the tools available at the time to find that one good load.The rifles were chambered in 300 Win Mag,and we wanted to use 180 grain Partitions for bullets.I settled on a load that was 1.5 grains over max in the published data in the Lyman manual.Lyman seems to publish some of the hotter loads out there,and I was using their 47th edition.I have compared that data to the data in the 50th edition,and most of the loads are a little cooler in the newer manual.I used a chronograph,a micrometer and a careful eye on the primers and anything else that could mean high pressure.Those rifles are still shooting the same load today.
I doubt your dad would have loaded anything that would be harmful to his son or the beautiful sounding rifles he gave you.Go with caution,but go.If the same thing would have happened to me,I would shoot them.The 06AI is the only one I would worry much about,and if the load he made up is over max for the regular 06,I wouldn't be at all afraid of it in the improved version.
I am loading for a 280AI,and it usually runs about 5 grains over the parent round.

 

[Bill M.]

Any fired cases matched with the ammo so you can check the fired primers? And you have fired cases from the sighting in. How do they look?

 

[Blue68f100]

Decades ago we had different brass than whats produced today. I pulled some of my old 308 from the late 60's to 70's and some of it is considerably lighter/thinner. And I have some that is on the there end of the scale too, heavy/thick. So more than likely they were not over loaded for the period he developed the load. Also if the OAL is longer that also increases case capacity. I have some Rem 7mm Mag loads that are over several grains when compared to current data. Some powders have been reformulated over the years too so you need to take that into consideration too. I always used load data that was current with the year the powder was purchased. And as you know depending on who you reference there can be big differences too. Depending on how old the loads are I would be more concerned of the powder going bad. I've had that happen to me on more than one occasion. Luckily I caught it at the early stages and used up the powder and broke some ammo down to save the components.

 

[cfullgraf]

I've only been reloading since 1980 and I've seen a couple of my load recipes get reduced in newer reloading manuals, sometimes more than once.

So, load adjustment definitely happens.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

When I took over my Dad's reloading for his .243 Model 70 and I discovered his loads were over max also. I backed them off about a grain and a half to get them back to Max loads and he could tell, and he was upset.
Until he shot a water snake in half with it that was sunning itself on the dock of his lake, at 125 yds. Then he was ok with it. He was sitting on his front porch up on the hill his house was on, above the lake.
He shot that gun for 50 years with his load and it never hurt anything with his gun. I doubt your fathers loads would hurt his guns either.

Just don't shoot his loads in yours.

 

[George P]

You need to compare his loads at the time he loaded them to the load manuals in print at that time. Powder formulations change, testing methods have changed, etc, as has already been mentioned. If he was meticulous and never had issues, and neither have you, sounds like they are good to go.

Want scary? When I lived in Colorado in the early 80s, old timers told me how they reloaded. just filled the case to the neck and seated a bullet - never weighed a powder charge; said they had been doing that for decades that way.

 

[denton]

MEHavey hit the nail on the head.

Some additional comments....

Are you looking at loads for the 257 Roberts, or for +P 257 Roberts? There is about 4 KPSI difference between the two, and in round numbers, that's a grain and a half of powder and about 100 FPS.

Pressure signs don't usually kick in until 70 KPSI or so, so if you're getting pressure signs, you usually need to back down at least 3 grains.

Primer flatness is an extremely poor indicator of pressure. Unless the primers are flowing, I would pay no attention to it.

A chronograph is your friend. Muzzle velocity is a pressure sign.

 

[Ironicaintit]

I inherited some reloads from my dad like that.

I did redevelop the loads, and as it turned out, some of them were fine, and quite accurate, even though they exceeded current book stats.

Others.... well, let’s just say I went with a different recipe than what he’d been running.

And that’s what I recommend you do; develop your own loads and see what you come up with.