Am I being realistic?

[PWC]

How's your shooting stance? Good firm stock weld, and leaning forward slightly with a solid fighting stance? That last part is key, I can't tell you how many people I see at the range shooting a rifle while standing perfectly straight (or worse, leaning backwards), and being rocked back under recoil with each shot.

This is how I shoot my AR-15, and I can double tap with good accuracy. Recoil is a non issue.
View attachment 1190403

Picture shows you "crawling" the stock. Butt should be higher than your shoulder, neck more vertical, not craned forward, just lean your head over on the stock for cheek weld. Recoil on .223 is not so much that it has to be in the shoulder pocket like a 30-06.

Do you get your natural point of aim (NPA) before your first shot or do you try to "muscle" the muzzle back on target? Close your eyes then pick up the rifle and put it in the shoulder. Where is the sight pointing? That's your natural point of aim for that position. The rifle wil recoil back to this position and you will have to muscle it to get back on target.

Repeat position set up, and move the back leg to adjust your point of aim left - right and shoulder position, cheek, fore grip for vertical. Rifle will recoil back onto the natural point of aim without having to muscle it back on target..

When you get this, practice mounting the rifle with your eyes closed to get / learn sight alignment; The "feel" of the NPA will become natural as muscle memory will will take care of the rest, even in a n emergency situation.

 

[doubleh]

I am not into AR''s very deep and do not do rapid fire shooting. It's an ingrained habit from when I was a kid. Money for ammo was only slightly more plentiful than hen's teeth. I learned to try to make every shot count. I have found that a decent muzzle brake will allow you to watch your bullet hit your target thru your scope at 100 yards when shooting your AR supported.

I still say there is no such thing as muscle memory. It's brain memory. Without input from your brain a muscle is just a flacid piece of meat like the steak you grill for dinner.

 

[Varminterror]

Picture shows you "crawling" the stock. Butt should be higher than your shoulder, neck more vertical, not craned forward, just lean your head over on the stock for cheek weld. Recoil on .223 is not so much that it has to be in the shoulder pocket like a 30-06.

This really isn't the best advice for proper technique for running the rifle quickly and retaining sight picture on (aka nearer to) target. Again, there aren't many folks in the world who get more training on how to properly and effectively operate the AR platform than the AMU Shooting Team... Technique which works phenomenally for Service Rifle competition isn't transferrable to action shooting.

 

[PWC]

With practice it will, YMMV

 

[Varminterror]

With practice it will, YMMV

I'm certain your implication that those guys aren't thoroughly practiced is inaccurate...

 

[Varminterror]

I had the luxury of being raised by a man who was born in a home with a dirt floor, who earned 5 degrees, and who retired from a career as an executive leader for multiple fortune 500 companies - among many lessons, two fundamentals he taught me about money: 1) make every dollar count, and subsequently 2) learn to count faster.

 

[rhino465]

Although common because it was REQUIRED to promote proper eye relief behind A1/A2 rear sights, following this instruction ensures the shooter is in a relatively weakened position behind the rifle to accept the recoil, because it forces the shooter to blade their shoulders to the target, removing body mass from behind the rifle, and removing ergonomic strength and support from the line of the rifle (aka, linebackers don't turn their shoulders sideways to make hits, they keep their bodies - shoulders and hips - square). Conceptually, think about how far your nose really reaches in front of the plane of the chest... Personally, with my chest square, my nose with my neck stretched as far forward as possible without tilting my head down will only reach 6.25" in front of the plane of my chest... Comparatively, the charging handle of an AR-15 with an A2 stock is 11" from the buttplate... This means I have to turn my head and blade my shoulders to the target to make up for almost 5" of extra length to get my nose on the charging handle... But if I'm not shooting A1/A2 aperture sights, I really don't need to align my eye in that same position...

So instead, with non-A1/A2 type sights, we can realize a more powerful and better supported shooting position, retaining more body mass behind the rifle and keeping our spine better aligned to the target to catch the recoil and run the gun. A shooter can even bring the rifle buttstock inward on the chest rather than slid out onto the medial face of the anterior deltoid, and put even MORE body mass in line with the rifle with LESS leverarm afforded to the rifle to twist the spine in recoil - aka, better catch recoil and recover even faster...

So if you're shooting irons for Service Rifle Competition (and don't, because you'll get gut stomped by all of the dudes running 4.5x scopes now), then nose-to-charger works, but for any other optic, wanting to deliver rapid succession shots on target, stop twisting the shoulders and your body behind and in line with the recoil - which will mean your nose comes off of the charger a LONG ways.

Knowing nothing else, but simply observing their positions, the shooter in @Ethan Verity's photo will catch recoil and recover on target MUCH more quickly than the shooter in @Charlie98's photo.

Observing his uniform, and acknowledging the AMU programming, you might imagine Staff Sergeant Payne has been thoroughly instructed on proper operation of the AR-15/M16 platform. But to catch recoil, he’s not shooting nose-to-charger in this photo:
View attachment 1190758

Alternatively, it’s pretty simple to see how little of AMU shooter Sergeant Wannamcher’s body is behind this rifle to catch recoil, and easy to see how much torque around his spine he will experience when shooting with his nose on the charger.
View attachment 1190759

What you say is great if you're stuck with the abomination that is the A2 buttstock or other overly long or non-adjustable stock.

I shoot with nose to charging handle. I also mount the stock inboard of my should on my pec and my torso is squared to the target, not bladed. This is possible because I have a collapsible stock, as do most others. On my rifle with a LPVO, I have it mounted forward enough and it has enough eye relief to use the same position as with iron sights or a dot.

 

[entropy]

For clarity, when I was in it was aperture sights only, ( with the only probable exception being the clamp-on Colt 3x21 scope- which I personally owned one of.) nose to the charging handle was the order of the day. (With either the M16A1 or the M16A2) As Varminterror pointed out this took advantage of the clarity (and thus seeming magnification) of the aperture sights. This was before personal body armor was issued(minus the annoying 'flak jacket') and also before RDS were used on issue rifles.

When Aimpoints found their way onto issue rifles, this allowed for the stance needed to be less specific. As body armor found it way into issue kit, a new way of aiming was needed to counter the lethal window underneath the arm pit that is presented to the enemy when firing from a ' nose to the charging handle' position. Squaring the body, while increasing the COM target area, makes use of the armor. Moving the stock anchor point inward solved two problems. It squared the body armor to the enemy, and put both eyes straight forward to better use the RDS and maintain situational awareness. At some point extending the offhand arm as far as possible was added to this.

Since most rifle scopes have an eye relief of @3" (give or take an inch to account for magnification and exit pupil) obviously either the shooter has to move their head back, or the scope forward. Most choose the former, particularly the higher the magnification. So we're back to at least partially blading the body, and subsequently, follow up shots will either be off, or slower. (Or in the case of many an AR owner, off and slower.)

 

[jrmiddleton425]

I have an AR in 556 and try as I might I cannot shoot (standing) with or without a sling, fire a round, immediately recover from recoil and maintain the weapon's sights on a full size human silhouette target and continue to fire maintaining the sights on the silhouette. The recoil always bounces the rifle off target some. I see videos online of fellas banging away firing so rapidly they have multiple pieces of brass in the air at a time. I am not a recoil wussy, I shoot 30-06, 7.62x54 and 8MM quite a lot and I am a decent marksman. From the sand bag bench today, just to see what I could do from that set up with my AR I shot MOA so I know the rifle and the load are good. I have only had the AR about 3 years and maybe have 500 rounds total through it. Somehow either my technique needs refinement or perhaps as my expectations of being able to rapid fire at 100 yards and keep all the rounds on target is unrealistic. I thought about getting a forward vertical grip. Seeking advice.

OK, here's the thing. If you're shooting fast enough to put multiple cases in the air, a reasonable expectation is a double tap at 25 yards.

The NRA High Power Rifle definition of "rapid fire" is 10 rounds in 60 seconds at 200 yards, or 70 seconds at 300. The Army/CMP definition is the same.

I'm talking there should be a pause between shots where you can count to three.

I'm going to be "that guy." If you want to do mag dumps, go rent a machine gun.

 

[HEAVY METAL 1]

OK, here's the thing. If you're shooting fast enough to put multiple cases in the air, a reasonable expectation is a double tap at 25 yards.

The NRA High Power Rifle definition of "rapid fire" is 10 rounds in 60 seconds at 200 yards, or 70 seconds at 300. The Army/CMP definition is the same.

I'm talking there should be a pause between shots where you can count to three.

I'm going to be "that guy." If you want to do mag dumps, go rent a machine gun.

No mag dumps, too old for such tomfoolery and too poor!

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

But the farther away we position our eye behind the aperture, we lose the apparent magnification of the sight, which is kinda the point of that sighting system.

I think it was Chris Kyle who said "You get on a motorcycle. You get BEHIND a rifle."
I might be misquoting Mr. Kyle.....it may not have been a motorcycle.

 

[Varminterror]

I shoot with nose to charging handle. I also mount the stock inboard of my should on my pec and my torso is squared to the target, not bladed. This is possible because I have a collapsible stock

This sounds great for folks with exceptionally short arms. Most folks have a wingspan nearly equal to their height - so collapsing the stock unduly to create a shorter LOP than natural for the arm length just to get the nose on the charger for anything but iron sights just doesn’t make sense.

 

[drobs]

Use a red dot sight. It's much faster to put / hold the dot on the target than it is to re-acquire that perfect sight picture needed with iron sights.

Shooting with friends on my own private range. We like to start at 50yds or further and shoot rapidly on the move as we walk towards our targets, side by side, Then transition to our pistols. I've tried that with both iron sights and a red dot. The RDS is superior.

Good video on fast shooting with a rifle:

How to shoot faster (With Mojo)

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www.youtube.com

Short summary, the Mojo fellow has a running cadence going on in his head. He starts shooting 1 shot, pause, 2 shots, pause, 3 shots, pause, on and on to 5 shots. And then backwards - keeping a cadence running in his head.

Unrelated but this is a fun video. Watch him at 10m45sec grab a Sig 320 mag from Garand Thumb and run it in his Glock...

I'm usually good for 3 rapid shots on target at close range with irons. Me shooting my Galil with a Techno Sound Track in the background

ATI Galil 223

www.youtube.com

 

[rhino465]

This sounds great for folks with exceptionally short arms. Most folks have a wingspan nearly equal to their height - so collapsing the stock unduly to create a shorter LOP than natural for the arm length just to get the nose on the charger for anything but iron sights just doesn’t make sense.

Indeed, I have the limbs (and general body build) of a giant toddler and my neck is just a bit of an indentation between my gargantuan head and my torso.

 

[Ignition Override]

HEAVY METAL 1:

Are you training for competition?

Or trying to imagine what it is like in some combat zones in Ukraine?

 

[Hokkmike]

A vertical grip would help a lot. So would a red dot.