Am I free to leave now, officer?

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Then again they can always pull the old "I smell pot" routine and search your car anyway but if you are clean cut and over 40 they probly won't.

I've gone 'round-and-'round about what you just brought up, and here's what I've thought.

Any probably cause suspicion must uncover evidence related to the probable cause stated. I.E., odor of marijuana as PC can not be used to find check fraud and must be used to discover marajuane specifically. Even though I suspect that to be the case, doesn't mean the cop won't just LIE about the encounter and how PC came about. Perhaps not, I don't know. But these are the questiions I wonder about.

But I gotta say - if they ASK, it does lend to that they don't have PC. Otherwise, why ask?
 
Not just officers and not just Georgia. There are good, and then...

I was stationed in Florida (Panhandle region), and bought a car with Alabama title from ... (long irrelevant story)... I went across the border to the closest county seat to get the title straightened out.

The county clerk (middle-aged lady who could have come from Stereotype Casting Company. She gave me the title, all good, and asked me for the fees. But when I asked why the receipt did not match the fees, she said, "Well it took extra time to process this, but if you don't like it we can undo it." She took the papers out of my hands and tore them up.

I was flabbergasted. I paused. I looked at my empty hands. I looked at her, then back at my empty hands, trying to think how to convince her to "un-tear-up" the papers. But I knew that wouldn't work. Then I looked around and saw that almost everyone else in the room was uniformed, 6' 3" or taller and probably averaged 230# and not a single ounce over 3% body fat (except the county clerk). Almost every one of them had "N" frame Smiths on their hips.

This was on a Friday. I did not relish the idea of spending the weekend waiting for Monday to call my First Sergeant all the way up there to bail me out. Discretion, that day, was the better part of wisdom, if not valor. I gave up valor in order to accomplish the mission.

I did get the title, through the mail, from another county. That time the money matched the receipt.

I will let anyone who wishes draw whatever conclusion they want from my experience.

Lost Sheep

p.s. Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.

p.p.s. It is the wise man who learns from his experiences. The truly wise man learns from the experiences of others.





They were not

Everything was good
 
Lost sheep...

I'd like to think that I could learn from your experience. Really, I read it all and took it all in!

But more, I'd like to thank you for your service, your service to this country and the freedom that I DID EXCERSIZE to say - "hey - am I free to leave, officer?"
 
Lost Sheep you are so right about experience. Throw into that cultural differences between the USA and other countries I learned a lot in a short time. Darn I had never heard of a "credit score" before my 40th birthday.
Let alone how to deal with Georgia cops.

I want to make one thing clear here I have had my problems with one individual officer and his sphere of influence but my two best friends are LEO. One an Ocala Lieutenant the other a FL county deputy. So don't all go thinking I am anti LEO I am pro citizen rights though.
 
Didn't mean anything by it ArtP. That was just my latest brush with the law.
I have had others that didn't go so well.
 
That would have got you a trip to the "Perry Hilton" and a misdemeanor obstruction of an officer in Houston County Ga. It's very much a "yes sir, no sir" county. Leaving before instructed to do so will cost you. I was held at a road block for 45 minutes because I looked drunk. This was at five in the afternoon on my way to my next client. They didn't breathalyse or even let me out of the truck. If I had argued in any way I would have got a ride in a Crown Vic. Legal or not. This is still the south.

I too have lived in Houston County GA my whole life and have had multiple run ins like this. Your story sounds very familuar, as I was pulled over at a road block on the exit ramp, yes they were pulling over every car that exited off the interstate, anyways he questioned me because I "looked drunk". The conversation went like this:

COP: How much have you had to drink tonight?
ME: Nothing, I havn't had a drop.
COP: Comon now don't <deleted> me, I've been doing this a long time (he looks to be early 30s)
Me: I havn't drank a single thing tonght officer.
COP: Well, you look like it...
ME: I look like I'm drunk?
COP: Yeah
ME: Are you calling me a liar?
COP: No, just saying you look drunk.
ME: Well I'm not....
COP:... ok, have a good night.

I found this very irritating, and rude. This was a byron cop, but I have had many other instances similar to this one.
 
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*scratches head*

I don't recall ever having an interaction with an officer that was a negative experience. Even if I'd done something wrong, the officers in my experience have all been professional and courteous.

I've heard lots of stories, but I've never seen it.

That babysitter getting waffle stomped might have started a lawsuit, though ...
 
How can I put this....No, I better not say that. Centerville (right smack in the center of Houston Co, Ga) is my home town and has been sense 1961. All of my family still live there and I am frequently back home visiting.

I don't know where you got your opinions from, but there are no "Fat Bellied Southern cops" just frothing at the mouth for the chance to toss you in jail. Thanks for trying to further the old stereotypes of the South.

Ya'll come back now, you hear?

My expeirneces in centerville are different. In my opinion, Centerville PD is some of the worst for this kind of mess. I have been pulled over in the exact same spot 3 times in one week to check if I was wearing my seatbelt.. At night.. Needless to say, I've been let go, but they obviously didn't like my red firebird.
 
*scratches head*

I don't recall ever having an interaction with an officer that was a negative experience. Even if I'd done something wrong, the officers in my experience have all been professional and courteous.

I've heard lots of stories, but I've never seen it.
Same here!
However I feel it is ones responsibility as a US citizen to know your rights if you have to deal with one of the bad ones.

Its like a motorcycle helmet, always wear it, hope you never need to use it.
 
That babysitter getting waffle stomped might have started a lawsuit, though ...

There's more to that story... We called the house from Reno just to check in, unaware of the incident, and a cop answered my home phone. The first question out of the cops mouth was - "where's your 9mm?". He was told it was none of his business. The 9 was actually with me, but he found ammo for it, in my house.

I was not there and would not have let them in for an incident that took place next door. Apparently they were actively looking for a shooter. The baby sitter must have let them in (it's been 20 years). She was just plain intimidated.
 
sixgunner455 said:
I don't recall ever having an interaction with an officer that was a negative experience. Even if I'd done something wrong, the officers in my experience have all been professional and courteous.

My one and only negative experience was when I was doing absolutely nothing wrong. Whenever I have been wrong (speeding, turn on red, etc), the officers have all been professional and courteous. So, I guess you know the chances are greater that the officer is one of the 1% bad ones right away when they approach you eating dinner in a restaurant at dinner time and ask, "Would you mind stepping outside with me for a minute". That's how it starts.

Next time my answer will be, "Yes, I do mind. Would you mind leaving me to eat my dinner in peace, please, officer, sir."
 
So, I guess you know the chances are greater that the officer is one of the 1% bad ones right away when they approach you eating dinner in a restaurant at dinner time and ask, "Would you mind stepping outside with me for a minute". That's how it starts.

Sounds interesting. Aren't you going to give us the rest of the story?
 
ArtP said:
Sounds interesting. Aren't you going to give us the rest of the story?

I was eating dinner at dinner time in a restaurant. Someone noticed my gun and called the police. Officer asks me to step outside, so I go with him (mistake #1). Officer asks me what agency I am with. I say none. He says I am scaring people. I say, by eating dinner?

He asks if I have a CPL. I say yes. He wants to see it. I said a license is only required to conceal a firearm and I am not concealing a firearm. He says the law says you have to show it to me. (Mistake #2), carrying the license when not required, so I did have to show it to him, that is the law.

He asks, do you have ID. (Mistake #3), I show him my military ID card which showed I was a military officer. Now two other cop cars pull up. He says, I would expect better behavior from a Navy officer. I said what do you mean? He said you are scaring people. I said, by eating dinner?!?

He said, you should cover up your gun. I said, it's not required by law. He holds my CPL in front of my face and says, this can be revoked, you know. I said FOR WHAT?!?! Eating dinner? Now I am getting pissed.

I said, Look. I'm not doing anything illegal. If you think I am doing something illegal then just write me the ticket. Otherwise, I am going back into the restaurant and finish my dinner, choice is yours. He hands me back my ID card and CPL and tells me to go back inside.

I sit down at my table to the remainder of my now cold dinner. Cop follows me in. Then he comes to my table, with a waitress walking behind him who isn't even old enough to serve beer. Cop tells me, you have to leave, you can get a to go box. I said, no bother, I'm done anyway. I give the waitress $20 which made about a $4 tip because the service was good and left, still open carrying, get in my car and drive away.

The next day, I hand deliver a letter to the management of the restaurant, stating my reason for carrying a gun is only for self protection and the service and food were great and I wish they would honor customer's rights to self protection.

Before I even got home, there was a message on my voicemail. The owner of the restaurant called and said the absolutely supported our rights to carry guns, they did not call the cops, another customer did, please come back, bring your friends, your family and your guns. The cop had removed a paying customer from a privately owned business against the owner's desires. He strong armed the <18 year waitress into following him when he unlawfully removed me from private property.

So, I sent an email to the chief of police informing him of his officer's illegal actions. I also informed him that a group of openly armed people would be having lunch at the same restaurant the following Sunday, by invitation of the owner of the restaurant and that he and any of his officers were welcome to join us socially. I also stated in the email that any attempt to remove us as invited guests of the restaurant would result in a lawsuit being filed. About 10 of us carrying guns and another 6 friends family had lunch at the restaurant. No cops showed up and I've never been approached by any police in this town for carrying a firearm.

They have an annual event in the city park where all the LEO agencies and EMT services set up tents and the community comes out for a get together. It's called the "National Night Out". I've open carried there twice now, even though there is an illegal city ordinance banning firearms in the park. No problems at all from any of the cops there after my one incident.
 
If the cops ask for permission to search your vehicle it means that they do not have probable cause.

Not quite.

If I ask to look in a vehicle during a contact or traffic stop, it is because I have gathered enough evidence--by open/plain view--to ask.

If the evidence is strong enough, and I can articulate through experience and training that there is a high probability that an item of contraband is in the vehicle, then I will detain and secure a search warrant.

I do know that there are cops who push the envelope--that usually does no good and the evidence gathered--unless it is in plain or open view--might well be thrown out.

And no--I'm not going to elaborate. We have our trade secrets as well. I will say that 99% of the folks I stop for traffic have nothing to worry about.
 
If I ask to look in a vehicle during a contact or traffic stop, it is because I have gathered enough evidence--by open/plain view--to ask.

And there are cops that will ask just for the heck of it, with no suspicion of anything at all. Besides, the fact that you think you might have seen something isn't going to change my answer! And neither is the fact that I have nothing illegal to hide.
 
And no--I'm not going to elaborate. We have our trade secrets as well.

No. You don't. You are a public servant. Everything you do is for the service of the public, not yourself or your organization. And every matter of policy at your fingertips is freely available to the public.

The idea that you have secret tools at your disposal is anathema to a free society. The notion that you do have secret tools is likely false, and your belief that having secret tools is A good thing makes you stand out in my mind as one of the few bad apples.

Secret law is the hallmark of the police state.
 
LemmyCaution said:
The idea that you have secret tools at your disposal is anathema to a free society. The notion that you do have secret tools is likely false, and your belief that having secret tools is A good thing makes you stand out in my mind as one of the few bad apples.

Trying to keep some tactics, techniques, and protocols somewhat hush-hush is really not quite what you're making it out to be. Declining to post some tricks of the trade on a public forum is hardly having secret laws; that's a ridiculous leap!

Think about it: most police-work involves, to some extent, stupidity on the part of criminals. There's a saying, "the smart ones don't get caught." Smart criminals don't consent to searches, confess to crimes soon after being arrested, and talk the cops' ears off without a lawyer present. For that matter, they are less likely to leave behind evidence. As it is, I quite like that aspect of our system; there's poetic justice in criminals getting caught due to their own stupidity, when their rights are theirs to uphold or forfeit for whatever reason. Often that reason is simple ignorance and laziness - not paying attention in 7th grade Social Studies/ELPS and not knowing anything about the constitution. Yes, there's poetic justice when someone has rights and is simply too ignorant to know it, and then traps themselves after having done wrong.

Should police procedure be "freely available," maybe, I suppose. It should be open to inquiry, sure, and certainly to review and audit from multiple directions. But you're pretty much verging on conspiracy-theory level thinking, if you are going to view the issue as either: everything police do should be published on an internet forum (and who knows where else), or we're on our way to a police state.

There are appropriate channels for inquiry or examination of police, and I'm not saying that you need an official reason, or even a very good reason to ask. Curiosity is good enough, IMO. In some cases police should be more forthcoming; I filed a complaint just last wek on a local police officer because of some unconstitutional actions she took presumably in the name of secrecy. However, it's just absolutely ridiculous to suggest that there should be some active effort to make police tactics and techniques a matter of public knowledge; that would compromise the safety and effectiveness of all police officers.
 
I'm in the middle on that concept. Nothing about what law enforcement officers are ALLOWED to do, or PROHIBITED FROM doing should be a secret from the populace they watch over. No action taken should be obscured from public scrutiny. A citizen should be able to know with absolute certainty where his right to speak or act (or remain silent) truly stops and where the authority of an officer to demand access, compliance, entry, etc. truly stops. And "pushing the envelope" should carry meaningful repercussions.

Should law enforcement have to publish ahead of time that they will be going to a specific place to exercise a warrant? No, that's probably going too far. Should they be keeping "trade secrets" about how they detain, coerce, surveil, interrogate, and otherwise obtain evidence? Absolutely not.
 
NavyLCDR said:
I was eating dinner at dinner time in a restaurant. Someone noticed my gun and called the police. Officer asks me to step outside, so I go with him (mistake #1). Officer asks me what agency I am with. I say none. He says I am scaring people. I say, by eating dinner?

I honestly want to know: Was the "by eating dinner" reply a smart-*** remark or was it an earnest question?

The reason I ask is because, while I really do applaud your efforts at activism, I think it's definitely not a good idea to set the tone of a police interaction right off the bat with what appears to be a smart-aleck comment.

If it wasn't a smart-aleck comment, I don't really know what to add, except that I'd be very surprised if that were the case. It seems to me like you probably knew why he was disturbing your dinner, and a more diplomatic approach would have worked better. That, and a bit more self-awareness.
 
conwict said:
It seems to me like you probably knew why he was disturbing your dinner, and a more diplomatic approach would have worked better. That, and a bit more self-awareness.

And would you care to tell me exactly what reason the officer had to disturb my dinner?

Person calls 911 and reports a MWAG in a restaurant. Officer shows up. Sees a person eating dinner in a restaurant at dinner time, enganging in EXACTLY the same behavior everyone else is engaging it at the time, and he is carrying a firearm in a manner which is not prohibited by any statute or ordinance. Now, exactly WHAT reason WOULD an officer have for interrupting the peaceful and lawful behavior of a citizen in this case?

I was not being a smart aleck. I wanted to know what LEGITIMATE and LEGAL reason there was for the involvement of police in my peaceful and lawful activities that are regularly enganged in by 90% of the American population.

My first mistake was going with the officer outside to begin with. He had no legal authority to demand anything of me because there was no reasonable or articulable suspicion of any crime being committed.
 
This is pure speculation on my part. But since LE is allowed to lie during an investigation, I think the odds are quite good that any "trade secrets" are different levels of lies and deception. I also believe cops want to be, and are good at their job. If they feel the need to use the label "trade secrets", for their own pride, so be it.

Completely shutting one's mouth, and hiring a quality, experienced legal defense is going to all but eliminate any "trade secrets" advantage. That is, unless said "trade secrets" are illegal.
 
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