Am I just getting old here?

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Okiecruffler

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Okay, I'm gonna get flamed on this, I can feel the temp going up already, but I just have to rant on this abit. Everytime someone post a question about "is such and such adaquate for HD?" Immediately they are beseiged with folks posting about how that was only adaquate in the 1200's when bad guys were polite and would faint at the sound of a harsh word. Then the bandwidth is flooded with pics of their HD gun, always a black 12ga pump or auto with attached light, laser, disco ball, GPS, anti-lock brakes and 5 inch LED screen. Then we hear about how their 27 round extended mag is loaded with depleted uranium laser guided heat seeking controled explosive slugs. Where do you people live?:rolleyes:
My father once gave me some good advice about buying cars. He said never pay for all the add on bells and whistles, they'll just fail when you start relying on them. K.I.S.S. I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.:scrutiny:
 
Well said--doo dads fail sometimes a good proven pump or wheelie or the tried and true 1911 will do the job fine. That being said Surefire lights are pretty nifty and so are lasers. Throw em on the tried and true for some extra fun.
 
I saw an article somewhere on how a laser saved some dude's life, didn't read it but it may have had some merit. In any case, it seems to me that training and forethought are paramount. No one will ever rise to the occasion; the best you can do is default to your highest level of training.
 
I did buy a used 20" barrel to make the gun easier to manuver in the house & a mag tube extension for a few rounds more. I kept the rest of the gun intact & I can still use it to hunt if I wish just by swaping barrels & tube caps. I really like the shorter barrel, the mag extension is probrably not necessary.
 
I think I saw it said best in the requirements for a gun course I saw on a website. It had all the usual stuff, hat, sunscreen, reliable gun, and finally, he said bring all of the original parts from your gun so that when all that ninja crap that you have added fails (and it almost always does), you can put it back to right and continue the course.
 
Okiecruffler,

You and I did not get older, instead we keep getting a new crop of whippersnappers that have been indoctrinated , brainwashed, and are victims of Sensory Input Propaganda.

Awerbuck, uses a double barrel shotgun.
Clint Smith keeps a 20 ga single shot shotgun near his bedside.

The only shotgun I keep handy of only two I have left, is a Youth, H&R Topper 20 ga single shot.

My old SWAT buddy, now passed, the one that he and his partner were ambushed on their day off, his partner shot, since he was walking ahead, my buddy pulled him back [dead] and my buddy was shot in the leg, weak hand draw, he killed the first perp, and after literally bouncing off the pavement, fired and killed the second perp, with a J frame.

He kept a Stevens 311, in 20 bore, for his home shotgun.

John, as you know I walked off before The Great Equipment Race got wound up, and this Equipment Race to buy skill and targets has done nothing but pick up speed since.

Folks wonder where some of the folks are that used to post here on THR, and other forums, trainers, and those that have been there and done that.

New whippersnappers ran them off.
Pat Rogers, was told by some armchair idiot, he did not know crap from Shinola about the AR Carbine...

Shotgun knowledgeable folks have been run off as well, and pistol folks too.

I will not be at your gunfight - Awerbuck.

None of these whippersnappers have ever been in my situations when guns and gunfire come to be.

My take is, I don't like some folks breathing my air anyway and Darwin's natural selection works for good guys and bad guys.

All I gotta do is take care of me and my kind.
John, you are my kind and I will watch your back, and you can watch mine any time!

You have seen the results of serious situations and do so everyday.
I have my experiences and some include the medical setting too.

Give that boy of yours a hug for me John.

Regards,

Steve
 
Agreed, the farthest I could see taking a HD gun is putting a light on it.. maybe. Even that is too many buttons for me when I'm jerked awake by a noise and wondering what the hell is going on trying to wake up. None of this AR15 stock crap, pistol stocks and forends, and other "tactical" garbage. I don't even see a need for a mag extension. The closest either of my shotguns get to the word tactical is a butt cuff with 5 more rounds on it beyond what is in the tube and that is because I got one for free from somewhere. 4 or 5 rounds of 20 or 12 ga with 5 reloads in a pump is a lot. If the zombies invade with my luck I'll be one of the zombies so it all a moot point anyway.
 
Well, Steve, I'm only 37, I'm sure several on this board could call me a whippersnapper (don't worry I won't mention names), but I just think this tackticool is getting out of hand. It's completely run me off the rifle forum and for the most part the pistol forums. And now everytime I open the SG forums I see at least 80% of the new post are questions about pistol grips or the newest attachment. Like I said, maybe I'm just getting old, or maybe I listen to closely to my elders. I was raised to know that there are those who have done it and those who like to talk about it and they seldom sit in the same chair.
My father in law spent quite a bit of time in the pacific, traveling from island to island on Uncle Sam's dime. Wasn't quite the tourist paradise it is now apparently. He was an unnaturally short fellow, but in 1942 the military would stretch that tape measure a bit for a guy who was willing to play. (He told me he was the only American out there the Japanese could look down upon). He told me stories of marching thru jungle so thick you couldn't swing a Garand. Carbines and shotguns were well sought after. He prefered the shotgun. We have pictures, and the SG's he's seen with don't have lights or bells or whistles, but they worked, and worked everytime they were needed. My grandpappy told me once when as a youngin, who didn't know any better I asked him how many nazis he killed, that folks who had actually been there, in the thick, didn't count bodies, they counted days. You could see it in my father in law's eyes when he spoke of the war, he had counted days, alot of them.

Jeez, ain't I feeling all wordy tonight?:rolleyes:

And you should see that youngin of mine. He's turning into quite the interesting experiment. Proves to me that there is a God, and he finds me awful funny.:D
 
I have lots of guns. But an old beat up SxS hangs over my bed. An old Davis 16ga. that belonged to my grandfather. Barrels smithed to 18", front bead replaced. Loaded with #1B.

It's what I grab when I hear a "bump" in the night...

powershot131vu5.jpg


I was "coach gun" before "coach gun" was cool.

Do I qualify for the "Old School Shotty" club?
 
I too feel the same way. I'll soon be turning 50, and I come from a strong military background and upbringing. To put it plain batteries fail when you need them most. I'd rather have a good set of irons to look across. Funny, I went through 20+ years in the Army as a grunt and never needed a lazer, or aimpoint, and could always make perfect quals. About the only thing cool was the night vision. Hell I'd rather have my M2 compass and a map than a GPS.
 
Lordy, John, we're ALL gettin' old around here 8^).

As to the cranky part, I'd say it was more just a touch of cantankerousness more so than outright cranky. You got a ways to go yet before you hit cranky.

'Course, not long after cranky comes curmudgeonly. THAT'S the one you have to look out for... not the curmudgeonly part, but the old age that goes with it :D.

All that shotgun stuff? Just a fad, just one more fad. Something else will come along before long to distract all the wannabe zombie killers and things'll calm down again, from that quarter anyway. When that happens we'll probably be bored for a while...

lpl/nc
 
Okay, I got to say this, that Davis is absolutely beautiful. I can feel the history just looking at it.


And like my grandpappy says, "getting old is hard, but it beats the alternative."
 
John,
You were raised right.

The deal is, Lee Lapin, Gordon, Dave Mc, and others have shared actual training for real work they did, with real trainers.
A search will pull up some of the reviews they wrote.

From memory, Awerbuck suggests : gun fit to shooter, and for serious situations the stock being a tad shorter in LOP, and a light.
That is Awerbucks only real two things he suggests, as far as equipment IIRC.

Just one example of one trainer, that grew up in South Afrika, with civil unrest, war, and now instructs.
Awerbuck prefers slugs by the way, as he admits he can't keep up if he has a buck or slug loading either...

It is my understanding, and I will default to those that have taken Awerbuck's classes...

His deal is the gun fitting the shooter, a tad shorter LOP on a full stock, a light, and no PG fore end or PGO,

He does care if 12 or 20 ga, what make, or type of action, as he knows them all, and shares all shotguns have Pro's and Con's.
He wants the gun reliable, and used with quality ammunition, that has been shot for reliability , patterned/ shot for slug groups for that gun.

He wants the person to be as one with the gun, the student to know how to keep the gun running and what to do if a problem happens.

He will remind folks, he will not be at their gunfight.


My Mentors & Elders include those that served in war, from Word Wars, Korea, and Vietnam.

I know what they run, my best bud run Ithaca 37 Riot, this one has the 20" bbl.
 
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well i guess i can include my .02 as well....im only 21, and i totally agree about all the tactical crap...is it cool? most guys my age seem to think so....but honestly, if u cant hit anything with it b/c you dont know how to shoot, all the gadgets in the world wont save you. so why no go spend that money on ammo and actually shoot rather than dumping it on plastic stuff?

The most tactical stuff I have done is putting a synthetic stock on my WASR...or a scope and a bipod on my .308. But I'd rather be shooting than shopping.
 
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for fun. I had a PGO Mossy with a 20 inch barrel and mag extention that was hella fun to run birdshot thru. But did it ever serve as a bedside companion? Guess.
 
i live by the kiss principle, my hd shotgun is a remington 870 with the only mods being an extended mag tube, and a single point sling attachment.
 
Damn I'm glad I read this post. KISS says it all. Although I do buy a new or new to me gun occasionally, I thought maybe I was one of the few here that still gets along right well with the stuff and ideas I've had for years. I've wondered at times if any of those beautiful shiny guns I see pictured here, especially those with all of the gadgets and doodads have ever been fired or carried!!:D
 
Guess you can hang me up with the other cranks. I've got a hidey hole full of hardware, from blippers to blasters, accumulated not collected for sport, fun and only incidentally for Duty at the Wall. I own ONE shotgun. It's a Rem.
12, 1100 model, Special Field, stock. My idea of a perfect upland gun, and bought for that alone. holds four rounds full up (my highest capacity long gun is a tube magazine .22.) Is my shotgun Useful at the wall? I suppose so, I keep a handful (literally) of slugs and buck 'just in case'. Shotgun in a defensive position, wife beside or behind me, waiting for the guy. If I have to, and I've had to, investigate bumps in the night, a handgun and a Maglite have been what I grabbed to go have a look-see. Usually in .45. But sometimes a handy other that happened to be at hand. I don't figure on stopping hordes of goblins at the wall. Our bad guys aren't that organized up here in Maine. Most of our o-dark 30 intruders are raccoons anyway. Goblins, I can fall back to the redoubt where the heavy stuff is stored, where Ma'am is covering the door with her .38.
I'm tired of reading about 'shotguns for HD'. And I'm sick of AK/EBR talk on the rifle forum. And I'm not interested in discussions of 'the right magnum pistol for bears'. I KNOW what's right for bears, already, BTDT.
I read Dave McC, sm, et al, because their interest and focus seems to match mine. (There are others, Okiecruffler among them.) Sporting use of firearms that may in some rare instances be reluctantly utilized for more immediate and serious purposes. Handing forward. Preserving and conserving the best of the best so that some of the adolescents who run around now with their Rambo'd tactical crap may some day, when (if) they grow up, have something of value to enjoy, appreciate, and pass on in their turn. Yeah, we're getting old, and like all old things, we are getting thin on the ground. All that's left is to keep the faith, and hope the kids grow up better than we are.
 
Time to raise the ire of the old folk.

Although I don't post pictures of my guns, nor do I really care what you use for your HD needs what I use bares a close resemblance to what has been aforementioned described. So I will answer these questions to the best of my ability to the understanding that I do not speak for the legions of the black gun shot gun crowd (I appreciate and own all kinds of guns) I do have some understanding about what is going on here.

Certainly there is some truth to the keeping up with the Jone's mentality and the movies and TV adds push in that direction but these things were invented for a reason. And if these guns and devices did not work, people would not use them.

Then the bandwidth is flooded with pics of their HD gun, always a black 12ga pump or auto with attached light, laser, disco ball, GPS, anti-lock brakes and 5 inch LED screen. Then we hear about how their 27 round extended mag is loaded with depleted uranium laser guided heat seeking controled explosive slugs. Where do you people live?

I live in Iraq. The working shot gun is a black plain jane 870 with no extra toys. The synthetic stock stands up to the elements and pace of operations out here quite well and much better than wood. The shottie is rarely used as it is not the best weapon to have for most circumstances. It has it uses and places but does not need any extras because it is not carried regularly.

The working rifle would have looked cool hanging from a Seal team member 15 years ago with half a dozen toys on it but now all military rifles look like that so maybe you are behind the times a little.

What we are talking about is incremental improvements that add up to a huge improvement overall. Lights, lasers, IR illuminators, and other doo-dads actually do improve your chances quite a bit and in certain circumstances make you darn near invincible. If I can see the bad guy and have his chest painted with an IR laser that is sighted in and he has no idea that I am even there... well you don't really have to ask who is going to win that fight now do you?

My father once gave me some good advice about buying cars. He said never pay for all the add on bells and whistles, they'll just fail when you start relying on them. K.I.S.S. I don't know, maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.

I imagine your father was quite a wise man. He likely lived in a time when even the best made electronic products were very unreliable. When a car could be expected to give 50,000 miles of service. When a battery might have lasted a few hours. When calling someone in Alaska was very expensive and difficult and calling someone in Iraq impossible. It was maybe questionable if one could drive across the country in a brand new car and make it without a breakdown.

Certainly many of the cheaper items that people buy and slap on their guns that are made in China will fail when needed. But reliable products that are properly serviced will give much valuable service under even harsh circumstances. So before you disdain something because it is new.. try it.

Edit:
I sumarize that while you do not need any of these items for HD use some of them do wonders to increase your chances of everything working out okay.
 
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Steve, you know I generally agree with you on keeping things simple. However, Titan6 has brought up a good point. Some of the new stuff works. Had a couple in the shop a few weeks ago looking for a HD shotgun. She was five foot and just a few inches, he was six foot and several inches. Anything that fit him was way too long for her. I know a taller person can use a shorter stocked gun, but he was really uncomfortable handling anything short stocked enough to fit her. Their budget was for one gun now, another eventually. They wanted a pump gun, so two single shots (an adult stock for him, and a youth for her) were out. I found a solution though. We had a Mossberg 500 with the factory equipped AR style six position collapsible/telescoping stock. Stock fully extended the gun fit him great. Stock one or two clicks short of all the way in fit her great. I showed them that they could lean it butt up with the stock set where she liked it, and that he could still grab it by the stock lever and let it slide to full out as he swung the gun up to mount it. The gun was all black and looked very tactical (if a gun can actually look tactical this one did). It had the tele stock. But it worked. The adjustable stock allowed it to fit each equally well.

Keep it simple, but don't ignore new things that will do the job better in some cases.
 
I would say that you should let the mission dictate the tools. My HD shotgun is a Mossy 500 with 20" barrel and 7 shot mag tube and attached white light. That is it. Face it, when things go bump in the night, it is nice to hit the target with some light to make sure it's not your kid trying to sneak back into the house.
 
Ugaarguy. Exactly right.

I put a simliar AR style six position collapsible/telescoping stock on my son's 10/22. I could show him how to shoot it easily and switch it over for him. As he grows, we pull it out a notch. I can't wait to see him this summer and figure out where he is. Since we will move him up into AR stlye rifles when I feel he is ready this was perfect for him to learn on.

Of course he has been begging me for a laser to go on the bottom rail:D ....
 
If I am in a situation in which I have to defend my life I have far too much pride to do it with anything less than the latest, most tasteful equipment. I would not want the villains to think less of me.

I don't think I could hold my head up if they said "The guy in the last house we invaded had a Vang Comp rig and the guy before that had a nifty Scattergun Technologies two tone outfit."
 
I too have burst out laughing at some of the crap people hang on their shotguns but over the years I have incorporated some improvements to my HD shotgun. Each modification however was done for a reason and had to prove it's utility.

It started as an plain 870P with an 18.5" bead sighted cylinder choked barrel and wood stock. Perfectly adequate for the task but lacking in some areas.

First to go was the stock. Too slippery and I sometimes pinched my little finger between the back the forend and receiver. The Hogue overmolded replacement is a definite improvement. Easier to hold tight, reduces recoil and no more pinched fingers.

After some patterning and practice I discovered that I didn't care for the bead sights or the cylinder choke. I live in a rural area and distances are longer and the need to shoot slugs is more frequent. The original barrel was replaced with a rifled-sighted 20" barrel with a IC choke. The sights on it were replaced with Firesights. I'm not sold entirely on them because they seem a little fragile but they are very good in low light conditions. I might replace them with tritiums some day.

A side-saddle was added. And the Remington safety was swapped out initially for a Wilson Combat and eventually for a Vang. I'm not sold on the Vang and may go back to the Wilson.

My 870 does double duty as a hunting gun so the light mount fits over the mag tube and is easily detachable compared to the full forend versions. There is no extended magazine because it makes barrel changes less convenient. The plastic mag follower was swapped out for a steel version and I added a sling.

Each change was made to respond to a need and was tested before being put into general use. There were other items tested and rejected for various reason particularly folding and PGO stocks. If I need a more compact gun I install my 14" barrel with rifle-sights.

Paul
 
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