Am I pushing coated bullets too fast?

[barnfrog]

After scrubbing the bejabers out of my Blachawk's barrel (multiple applications of Patch-Out as well as the Kroil and Chore Boy treatment a couple times) I finally got to where patches came out clean. With my shiny bore I went to the range and shot 42 rounds yesterday:

MBC 148 gr DEWC & 3.3 gr Red Dot - 12
MBC 158 gr LSWC & 6.6 gr Unique - 6
MBC 158 gr LSWC & 6.8 gr Unique - 6
MBC 158 gr LSWC & 7.0 gr Unique - 6
MBC 158 gr LSWC & 6.2 gr Universal - 12

All were Hi-Tek coated. Because it took me so long to get the bore clean before hitting the range, I gave it another dose of Patch-Out when I got home and let it sit for nine hours. The resulting fouling on the patches included what looked like silver shards of metal, which I'm assuming was lead. I had seen this on the patches last week, but was confused because I was shooting coated bullets. Previously the hardest I had pushed the LSWCs was 6.4 grains of Unique. Load data estimates I could be hitting as high as 1300 fps with those 7.0 grain loads i shot yesterday.

Where do you usually start seeing lead fouling show up with Hi-Tek coated bullets? Also, do barrels get more prone to leading and fouling the more they are used? This is a late 70s Blackhawk that I bought used, and it seems to get really dirty really quickly.

 

[Skgreen]

I seem to have the best results when I load coated lead as if it were lead,,,

 

[blue32]

Without a chronograph you'll never know for sure. The fastest I pushed lead with standard lube in pistols was 1,250 and gas checked with standard lube in rifle at 1,600. 12.5 hardness on both. Possibly oversized chamber mouths / undersized bullets. I've used MBC Hi Tek before so unless their coating isn't as great as it used to be I'd say maybe that.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I can’t honestly say but I also have a late 70’s RBH 6-1/2” in .357 and don’t have leading or streaking problems - though I do sometimes get a little streaking from Hi-Tek bullets it isn’t thick or hard to remove. I can’t say I’m pushing my 158gr RFN Hi-Tek coated as fast as 1300fps either but pretty close (14.5gr. 2400 or 6.8gr. Unique are my two favorites). One thing I did when I got my gun - and have done it with all my revolvers since the late 80’s - is take it to a good gunsmith and have the cylinders regulated so they’re all the same dimensions in the throat. I had that done to my Colt Lawman on the advice of my boss at the time and later had it done to all of them. The Colt was pretty close already but my RBH’s and RSBH’s have ranged from very good to “oh m’garsh!” Does it help? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[barnfrog]

I can’t honestly say but I also have a late 70’s RBH 6-1/2” in .357 and don’t have leading or streaking problems - though I do sometimes get a little streaking from Hi-Tek bullets it isn’t thick or hard to remove. I can’t say I’m pushing my 158gr RFN Hi-Tek coated as fast as 1300fps either but pretty close (14.5gr. 2400 or 6.8gr. Unique are my two favorites). One thing I did when I got my gun - and have done it with all my revolvers since the late 80’s - is take it to a good gunsmith and have the cylinders regulated so they’re all the same dimensions in the throat. I had that done to my Colt Lawman on the advice of my boss at the time and later had it done to all of them. The Colt was pretty close already but my RBH’s and RSBH’s have ranged from very good to “oh m’garsh!” Does it help? Maybe. Maybe not.

Finding a good gunsmith has been challenging. I've asked for recommendations at the shops I frequent and mostly what I get in response are shrugs or "None around here I know of." I may have to send it out to someone.

 

[AJC1]

I dont run high tech but I do run powder coat. 12 ish bhn bullets to jacketed velocities. I only get led chips when shooting traditional lube bullets.

 

[Barbaroja]

Have you slugged your bore? What size are the Bullets you are shooting

 

[barnfrog]

I dont run high tech but I do run powder coat. 12 ish bhn bullets to jacketed velocities. I only get led chips when shooting traditional lube bullets.

That's consistent with what I've read, which is why I thought it might not be lead, but I don't know what else would look like that. I'll have to post pics if it happens again.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I clocked Summer's enterprises coated 44 mag out of my carbine at 1650 fps. No leading.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Have you slugged your bore? What size are the Bullets you are shooting

Are you thinking the bullets are skating the grooves? Could be, especially if one or more throats are undersized.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Finding a good gunsmith has been challenging. I've asked for recommendations at the shops I frequent and mostly what I get in response are shrugs or "None around here I know of." I may have to send it out to someone.

Bummer! At the time I got my Colt I was working as an aerospace machinist and had access to all kinds of tooling but still took it to a gunsmith in Merritt Island (150mi north) to do the work. There’s a difference between a machinist and a gunsmith, though most gunsmiths are also fair machinists and a few machinists could probably make good gunsmiths. Again, I took the advice of an elder and more experienced pistolero.

I think it might be worth investing in a good set of pin gauges and some pure lead balls around the right size for slugging - say... .360 + .003/- 0.001? That will give you an idea of whether it’s related to groove/throat dimensions. Probably.

 

[barnfrog]

Have you slugged your bore? What size are the Bullets you are shooting

I have slugged the bore but don't recall off the top of my head what the groove and bore diameters were, although I'm fairly sure the groove diameter was smaller than the chamber throats.

 

[Engineer1911]

Your problem may start at the forcing cone and into the first inch of rifling. Your 1970's barrel could be shot out. Is accuracy at 25 or 50 yards a problem? I had a new Ruger SBH in 44 mag. The barrel was done at about 3,500 rounds, Winchester data for W296 powder is brisk. It would not shoot any 'load' accurately. Same load in new Redhawk shot 59- 5X at a 25-yard pistol target.

 

[.45Coltguy]

After scrubbing the bejabers out of my Blachawk's barrel (multiple applications of Patch-Out as well as the Kroil and Chore Boy treatment a couple times) I finally got to where patches came out clean. With my shiny bore I went to the range and shot 42 rounds yesterday:

MBC 148 gr DEWC & 3.3 gr Red Dot - 12
MBC 158 gr LSWC & 6.6 gr Unique - 6
MBC 158 gr LSWC & 6.8 gr Unique - 6
MBC 158 gr LSWC & 7.0 gr Unique - 6
MBC 158 gr LSWC & 6.2 gr Universal - 12

All were Hi-Tek coated. Because it took me so long to get the bore clean before hitting the range, I gave it another dose of Patch-Out when I got home and let it sit for nine hours. The resulting fouling on the patches included what looked like silver shards of metal, which I'm assuming was lead. I had seen this on the patches last week, but was confused because I was shooting coated bullets. Previously the hardest I had pushed the LSWCs was 6.4 grains of Unique. Load data estimates I could be hitting as high as 1300 fps with those 7.0 grain loads i shot yesterday.

Where do you usually start seeing lead fouling show up with Hi-Tek coated bullets? Also, do barrels get more prone to leading and fouling the more they are used? This is a late 70s Blackhawk that I bought used, and it seems to get really dirty really quickly.

Hmm. Your 158/6.8gr and 7.0gr Unique may be a bit too much for your BH. 5.5-6.2 ought to give better results. Also, 6.0gr Universal works superbly in my BH[6.5" barrel] and in my Henry[20" barrel]. Clean and accurate. This is what i have found with coated bullets. BTW, I use Missouri and T & B coated bullets.

 

[AJC1]

Hmm. Your 158/6.8gr and 7.0gr Unique may be a bit too much for your BH. 5.5-6.2 ought to give better results. Also, 6.0gr Universal works superbly in my BH[6.5" barrel] and in my Henry[20" barrel]. Clean and accurate. This is what i have found with coated bullets. BTW, I use Missouri and T & B coated bullets.

7.0 is the jam in my 4" colt. I've tested higher but I load to accuracy. I haven't developed a universal load yet, but I do have two pounds...

 

[barnfrog]

Is accuracy at 25 or 50 yards a problem?

Yes. I have never shot it past 25 yards because outside of a few groups that I now figure must have been flukes, my 25-yard groups with coated bullets average just under five inches shot with both wrists and elbows rested. Groups with jacketed bullets are better, averaging just over three inches, which still doesn't pass muster as far as I'm concerned.

 

[EricBu]

I push coated bullets in 44 Mag up to 1500 fps with no excessive leading. 45-70 up there as well. You could have a few things going on, without a chrony you're "shooting blind" as far as how hard you're pushing them. I will say that a hard (BHN 18 for example) cast bullet at a low velocity will lead more than a BHN 12 soft allow at low velocity, because the harder bullet doesn't obturate and gas cuts. I've watched more than one person keep going harder on the alloy while reducing his charge trying to solve excessive leading, when they should have matched the BHN to the velocities they wanted. Cliff Notes: I push MBC coated bullets as hard as jacketed with no issues.

 

[barnfrog]

I push coated bullets in 44 Mag up to 1500 fps with no excessive leading. 45-70 up there as well. You could have a few things going on, without a chrony you're "shooting blind" as far as how hard you're pushing them. I will say that a hard (BHN 18 for example) cast bullet at a low velocity will lead more than a BHN 12 soft allow at low velocity, because the harder bullet doesn't obturate and gas cuts. I've watched more than one person keep going harder on the alloy while reducing his charge trying to solve excessive leading, when they should have matched the BHN to the velocities they wanted. Cliff Notes: I push MBC coated bullets as hard as jacketed with no issues.

The LSWCs are BHN 18, and the DEWCs are BHN 12. According to MBC's website, I'm in the right pressure range for the wadcutters, maybe a bit over on the semi-wadcutters. They don't say whether the numbers apply to coated the same as lubed.

 

[barnfrog]

Hmm. Your 158/6.8gr and 7.0gr Unique may be a bit too much for your BH. 5.5-6.2 ought to give better results.

Negative. From 5.2 to 6.2 grains of Unique my best 25-yard group was just under five inches.

This is my first and only center fire handgun, and I've had it just over a year. I've been reluctant to blame the gun for the large groups because as Grampy used to say, it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. I bought it from a friend who had this gun and a Colt Trooper he had inherited from his uncle. He said he'd take the Ruger back if I didn't like it. It may be time to ask him if his offer still stands and find out if he's still interested in selling the Colt.

 

[AJC1]

The LSWCs are BHN 18, and the DEWCs are BHN 12. According to MBC's website, I'm in the right pressure range for the wadcutters, maybe a bit over on the semi-wadcutters. They don't say whether the numbers apply to coated the same as lubed.

I don't think you can push a bhn 18 bullet in a pistol hard enough to be problematic unless your using 454, 460 or 500 mag. Even in a carbine I contend you have a lube or coating issue.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Negative. From 5.2 to 6.2 grains of Unique my best 25-yard group was just under five inches.

This is my first and only center fire handgun, and I've had it just over a year. I've been reluctant to blame the gun for the large groups because as Grampy used to say, it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. I bought it from a friend who had this gun and a Colt Trooper he had inherited from his uncle. He said he'd take the Ruger back if I didn't like it. It may be time to ask him if his offer still stands and find out if he's still interested in selling the Colt.

Well, we certainly have different results in our handguns. Not arguing, just different results.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I loaded some MBC coated Cowboy #4 200gr to try in 200m silhouette. Fired 50 of them the other day with no leading. I'm pushing them 1560fps in my Henry 45colt. But this thread now has me curious about something: I fired about twenty XTP's right before cleaning it and now I'm wondering if those XTP's cleaned out any leading I might have had?
Gonna have to test this now and find out, hopefully after the next match.

 

[AJC1]

I loaded some MBC coated Cowboy #4 200gr to try in 200m silhouette. Fired 50 of them the other day with no leading. I'm pushing them 1560fps in my Henry 45colt. But this thread now has me curious about something: I fired about twenty XTP's right before cleaning it and now I'm wondering if those XTP's cleaned out any leading I might have had?
Gonna have to test this now and find out, hopefully after the next match.

Happy to see your getting a lot of mileage from that rifle, hate any dust to accumulate on it.

 

[35 Whelen]

I push these Bayou Bullets Hi-Tek coated bullets to just over 1900 fps in my M1 Carbines with no leading, and if one reads the reviews on their site, others have the same experience. BUT I believe one reason the M1 Carbine is so easy on cast bullets is the slow (1/20") rifling.



35W

 

[Obturation]

Somethings off.
I use hi tek coated bullets in 357 mag, 45 colt, 454 casull & 45/70. No problem. I've gotten to around 2000 fps with 250 grain 454s and zero leading. Slug your bore maybe