Am I pushing coated bullets too fast?
- Thread starter barnfrog
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barnfrog
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Yes. I haven't noticed any of the coating being scraped off, but I could try flaring the cases a tad further and see if that makes any difference.
When I got home I checked the slug, which I still have on my bench. Groove diameter of the barrel is 0.3585" and bore diameter is 0.3520" although my micrometer is not of the highest quality. The MBC LSWCs mike out to 0.359" and will not drop through any of the chamber throats even when tapped firmly with a quarter-inch dowel. Not as precise as a pin gauge, but perhaps suggestive of tight throats.
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GeoDudeFlorida
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Too loose in the throat stresses the forcing cone. Too tight in the throat undersizes the bullet before it can get to the forcing cone. Just right in the throat constricts the bullet and almost sizes it to the bore.
P Flados
Member
I run 357 Max full power with bullets I cast and powder coat with zero leading. I have run these in a Dan Wesson revolver, a TC Contender 10" and 14".
They are cast from range scrap that is a softer than commercial cast.
However, it sounds like your gun may have throats that are not big enough to allow full power with coated bullets. For the bullets you have, I would just drop down in power until they shoot with zero leading. You may have better luck with a different brand, or you may not.
Another choice may be to have the gun worked on. Over at the Cast Bullets forum, a regular poster seems to have a really good reputation for "fixing" revolver throats. Here is a link to a thread that you may want to read:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...-Exclusively-Sunnen-Hone-Now&highlight=throat
They are cast from range scrap that is a softer than commercial cast.
However, it sounds like your gun may have throats that are not big enough to allow full power with coated bullets. For the bullets you have, I would just drop down in power until they shoot with zero leading. You may have better luck with a different brand, or you may not.
Another choice may be to have the gun worked on. Over at the Cast Bullets forum, a regular poster seems to have a really good reputation for "fixing" revolver throats. Here is a link to a thread that you may want to read:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...-Exclusively-Sunnen-Hone-Now&highlight=throat
Barbaroja
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Maybe try measuring again. Maybe reslug as those number don’t sound right to me. Also it sounds like your chamber throats are too small but we won’t know until there is an accurate bore measurement
edit: after re reading your last post I think it’s just a typo and you meant .358 not .385
If that’s the case then the problem is that your cylinder throats need opened up a bit. Ideally you want the bullet squeezed a little bit tighter as it travels through the gun. Example being shooting a .359 bullet through throats sized at .3585 then into your .358 barrel would be ideal.
Your situation sounds more like. .359 bullet going through.357 throats and then into a .358 bore where it’s not able to grip the rifling properly.
Now I’m no expert, perhaps I’ll be corrected but this is how I understand it.
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Barbaroja
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This is who I was going to recommend to do the work on the throats. I’ve not personally used him but he seems to do quality work from all I read.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Yeah, rifling is typically 4 thousandths deep, not 17 thousandths. That’s just got to be a mistake.
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barnfrog
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Yes, thank you for catching that. I've edited the post to correct the error.
jmorris
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Properly coated, I can take a hi-tek coated bullet and smash it with a hammer so it is obviously a larger diameter without compromising the coatings adhesion to the projectile.
I can also heat the bullet until it’s just sack for the molten lead inside.
If the coating isn’t staying on the bullet, all bets are off as you are shooting unlubed lead at that point.
The only way I know of to know it survives the trip down the bore is to catch one after it exits.
If it’s flaking off with the hammer test, they don’t get loaded in anything, I test at least one every batch.
I can also heat the bullet until it’s just sack for the molten lead inside.
If the coating isn’t staying on the bullet, all bets are off as you are shooting unlubed lead at that point.
The only way I know of to know it survives the trip down the bore is to catch one after it exits.
If it’s flaking off with the hammer test, they don’t get loaded in anything, I test at least one every batch.
BRatigan
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My 45-70 leads up with the ACME 405 HT2 bullet even at lower velocities so I slugged my bore, and my grooves were .456. So, I resized my 405s to .457 and I go to the range soon to get a better look at things. My 357 Mag M73 does not lead up at speed with a 158 ACME HT2. That bore is on the money and scary accurate. The 45-70 is also very accurate but its more work at the moment for cleaning. Sharpshooters Lead out works for me.
tominboise
Member
As far as your question about more shooting causing more leading, that is unlikely in most cases. The bore continues to get polished and should get smoother over time, assuming your are using mostly lead bullets.
There are a few guys around where one can mail the cylinder alone and have the throats reamed. It also might not hurt to check the throat and perhaps have the lead angle reamed to 11 degrees ( I think that is the angle).
There are a few guys around where one can mail the cylinder alone and have the throats reamed. It also might not hurt to check the throat and perhaps have the lead angle reamed to 11 degrees ( I think that is the angle).
Seedy Character
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I concur
Bullets are undersized.
I load coated bullets in .30-30 and .30-06 with no problems.
.30 Carbine, .357, .41, .44, .45 revolver velocities are well below what should be the limit. (2600 fps is my top)
Undersized bullets do skate the rifling and cause the fouling you are experiencing.
Bullets are undersized.
I load coated bullets in .30-30 and .30-06 with no problems.
.30 Carbine, .357, .41, .44, .45 revolver velocities are well below what should be the limit. (2600 fps is my top)
Undersized bullets do skate the rifling and cause the fouling you are experiencing.
From what information you provided, I can conclude that you are pushing all you loads too fast.
I checked with Alliant Powder web-site, Hornady 10 & 11 Powder manuals and Hodgdon web site and you are over max on all your loads. I talked with Alliant technical support, when they would still to people, and in 2016 they told me your Red Dot load is max. at 3.0 grains when loading a 148 grain lead projectile.
I shoot MBC products as well and was told at one time to use lead powder manual loads when shooting powder coat. If for some reason you decide to go to higher loads, use a step ladder approach in testing loads.
I checked with Alliant Powder web-site, Hornady 10 & 11 Powder manuals and Hodgdon web site and you are over max on all your loads. I talked with Alliant technical support, when they would still to people, and in 2016 they told me your Red Dot load is max. at 3.0 grains when loading a 148 grain lead projectile.
I shoot MBC products as well and was told at one time to use lead powder manual loads when shooting powder coat. If for some reason you decide to go to higher loads, use a step ladder approach in testing loads.
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barnfrog
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I do appreciate your concern for my safety. The Red Dot load for 148-grain wadcutters was developed using data from Hornady and Speer manuals as well as from Alliant in the Complete Reloading Manual for the .357 Magnum, which is a compendium of data from bullet and powder manufacturers. 3.3 grains is the max load in .38 Special, and about mid-range for .357 Magnum according to those sources when using lead bullets.
I didn't mention it in my initial post, but the 158-grain LSWC loads were preceded a few weeks ago by loads ranging from 4.6 to 6.4 grains of Unique. No sticky extraction or other pressure signs were noted, so I went up a couple more intervals to see if accuracy improved. Still no pressure signs, although I will admit 6.8 grains is the highest book max I've found for that bullet/powder combination in any source.
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barnfrog
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Is it OK to slug the cylinder throats if one doesn't have access to pin gauges? Seems like it wouldn't hurt anything but I've never seen anyone mention doing it. Maybe it's just easier to buy the gauges.
GeoDudeFlorida
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It’s a lot more accurate to use gauges. Slugging cylinders is done but it’s not worked out for me. The dang slug kept wanting to turn and wiggle. Try Cerosafe if you don’t have a feel for gauges.
41 Mag
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I've owned quite a few Rugers over the years. One thing the BH's have had in common, is having at least one odd sized cylinder chamber. For the most part this was never an issue for me since I loaded mostly bulk purchased JSP or JHP's for hunting purposes.
I have however had from just minor shading to an actual smooth bore within 4 shots with my Redhawk. That however was a case of wrong size, wrong alloy. It was one of my first forays into cast loading and I hope to never repeat it.
With the loads I shoot now, I have easily run my home cast up into the 13-1500+ fps range out of my revolvers using both conventional lubed and PC'ed. I have two alloys that I use, one for loads up in around the 1150fps range that is close to a 10bhn and one for the higher-end loads that is in the 12bhn range. The latter works great for all solids but doesn't function well in low velocity HP's.
I have half a bucket of recovered powder coated from various calibers run both soft and hard. None of them have left much more than a light gray dust in my barrels.
I highly recommend finding some pin gauges or someone who has them to check your cylinders. The fellow referenced above has been on the CB site for years and no telling how many cylinders he has adjusted. It only takes one of the six to ruin the following shots.
I have however had from just minor shading to an actual smooth bore within 4 shots with my Redhawk. That however was a case of wrong size, wrong alloy. It was one of my first forays into cast loading and I hope to never repeat it.
With the loads I shoot now, I have easily run my home cast up into the 13-1500+ fps range out of my revolvers using both conventional lubed and PC'ed. I have two alloys that I use, one for loads up in around the 1150fps range that is close to a 10bhn and one for the higher-end loads that is in the 12bhn range. The latter works great for all solids but doesn't function well in low velocity HP's.
I have half a bucket of recovered powder coated from various calibers run both soft and hard. None of them have left much more than a light gray dust in my barrels.
I highly recommend finding some pin gauges or someone who has them to check your cylinders. The fellow referenced above has been on the CB site for years and no telling how many cylinders he has adjusted. It only takes one of the six to ruin the following shots.
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barnfrog
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Found a local gunsmith across the river. Cutting to the chase, after describing the situation, he suggested I try sizing the coated bullets before loading to see if that improves things before going to the expense of having the chamber throats reamed. There are three things that give me some relative confidence in his advice:
1. He's in his 70s and says he's been working on guns for over 50 years.
B. His turn around time is 60 to 90 days.
IV. He could have just done the work and taken my $200+ but instead gave me an alternative that might save me some money.
I figure anyone who's been in the business that long and is in demand enough to give him that much of a backlog of work must know what the heck he's doing.
If my barrel and chamber slugging measurements are accurate, the groove diameter is 0.3585", and the cylinder throats are as follows:
Chambers 1, 2 & 3 - 0.3585"
Chamber 4 - 0.3590"
Chamber 5 - 0.3605"
Chamber 6 - 0.3595"
So maybe I'll give that a try. Could save me a few bucks, and if it doesn't improve the gun's performance I can always go back and have him do the smithing.
Nice shop, by the way. While I was there I took a look at a very nice 7x57 Mauser 98 and a .41 Magnum Blackhawk with 4.5" barrel. I'll probably be back there one way or the other.
1. He's in his 70s and says he's been working on guns for over 50 years.
B. His turn around time is 60 to 90 days.
IV. He could have just done the work and taken my $200+ but instead gave me an alternative that might save me some money.
I figure anyone who's been in the business that long and is in demand enough to give him that much of a backlog of work must know what the heck he's doing.
If my barrel and chamber slugging measurements are accurate, the groove diameter is 0.3585", and the cylinder throats are as follows:
Chambers 1, 2 & 3 - 0.3585"
Chamber 4 - 0.3590"
Chamber 5 - 0.3605"
Chamber 6 - 0.3595"
So maybe I'll give that a try. Could save me a few bucks, and if it doesn't improve the gun's performance I can always go back and have him do the smithing.
Nice shop, by the way. While I was there I took a look at a very nice 7x57 Mauser 98 and a .41 Magnum Blackhawk with 4.5" barrel. I'll probably be back there one way or the other.
Bula
Member
Do these pass the hammer test? I know people push to 2K fps with Hitek. How many coats? Also didn't see what you're sizing to?
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barnfrog
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Haven't done the Hammer test. Not sure how many coats because Missouri Bullet Company coated them, not I. I haven't been sizing them up to now but ordered a .358" Lee push-through sizing die kit.
.45Coltguy
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Hammer test. Not sure what a hammer test will tell you as opposed to loading and shooting any coated cast bullet. Not arguing here, but, if loading cast/coated within the parameters they are intended for, they should work as intended. Hmm.
AJC1
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It's a test to determine if the coating is properly bonded...
.45Coltguy
Member
With a hammer? Man, I am missing something here. If coated cast bullets can not be loaded and shot under NORMAL loading procedures, well, I am at lost. Whacking with a hammer. Damn.
AJC1
Member
If the coating has bonded correctly it will still be stuck to the bullet when pounded completely flat. If it flakes and falls off it fails. I'm willing to pound one if you want to see. I don't have a failed example, at least I hope.
