Amateur Knife Making

[Mokwepa]

I know ive said this before, but soon.

Have a question, im thinking of doing a survival knife/spear combo. Flat tang wrapped in parra cord will be a better knife than spear. and socket spear would be better spear than knife........what would you go for?

 

[7X57chilmau]

I'd do the socketed head. The socket actually makes a pretty decent handle, and it's very easy to quickly haft a socket.... Just taper the stick (using the head), slip the head on and sharply bang the butt on the ground.... Done!

but to haft a tanged head requires boring a hole in the shaft.... And something to bind it all....

I found my socketed heads to be very easy to sharpen, in part because of the relatively soft steel I make'm from, and in part because the large, 7" long socket gave great control....

For your idea, I'd probably aim for a 4" blade on a 4" socket, and tap a wooden pommel ball in the socket for "normal knife" use. Pop out the ball and ram on a shaft, and it's time to hunt!

J

 

[Mokwepa]

Here are a few pics of my Zulu Fighter.

Ill try get a action shot.

 

[messerist]

Very niiiiice! Shaka would be envious.

 

[7X57chilmau]

I like it, Mok! Very businesslike! Looks like your hammer control is improving nicely too....

J

 

[Mokwepa]

All i need to do now is pick a fight with one of them big cats now, and see how she works

 

[7X57chilmau]

Don't get yerself killed.... This thread would miss ya

J

 

[Mokwepa]

Oh sweet, i feel so loved, only kidding. Im not that dumb, got to keep all my limbs in tact so i can keep forging Going for a ride on my bike this afternoon along a river to look for spear shafts. Hoping for tamboti or spike thorn or anything else hard and straight. Ill let you know what i find.

 

[Mokwepa]

I have started a new spear.

Its going to be a hugely strong armor piercing battle spear . Im quite keen on hunting car doors and need something suitably strong. Im battling with the socket part, its hard work beating it flat and im still not sure how im going to form it into a cone. I dont have a big steel spike and i dont have a proper anvil.

Any ideas what i can use to form the cone/socket?

 

[7X57chilmau]

Ok, forming the socket.... It is ALOT of work to make the socket, I'll tell ya.

When I formed spearheads from RR spikes, the entire first day, about 7 hours of forging, was spent spreading the metal for the socket. This goes much faster if you have a straight pein or cross pein hammer. Otherwise, alternate between the ball pein and flat hammer face. Use the pein (ball or straight) to produce a lumpy surface, and then the face to smooth it out again. This simply moves metal faster than beating away forever...

Once you've got a roughly triangular and thin mass of metal, trim the edges up with grinder, hardie, chisel or whatever you like. The base of the triangle should be about pi X shaft diameter (close to 3x diameter). For a 1" shaft, that's a 3.14" socket base.

Position the heated socket over the edge of your anvil (rr track). Start bending the edges first, and slowly move the bend in. You don't need to do it all at once.

Once you've got it about halfway curved, you can start to continue the bending of the cone by placing it on the face of the anvil and coaxing it closed with the hammer. Gentle work. Curve the sides first, curve the middle (the centerline) last...

If you overcurve any part, I kept a 1/2" iron bar, which I'd forged to a blunt point, in my vice. Just slip the socket over it and use it to help correct whatever sin you committed. Also useful for correcting a banana shaped socket, if ya know what I mean.

You want the edges of the socket to pretty much meet, but there is no need to lap or weld them.

Now, "order of operations"....

When I make a spear or arrowhead,

- I first flatten out the socket triangle (the entire first day, typically, when forging from RR spike)

- then forge transition from socket to blade, (a couple heats.... Leave this thicker than you think you need. You can thin it later, but adding material later is difficult or impossible)

- then forge the blade (an hour or 2),

- then form the socket (an hour)

- then do final straightening of blade and socket, then HT. (half an hour)

Point the open end of the socket away from you when quenching, or it may throw gobs of hot (maybe burning) coolant at you.... which is unpleasant.

Hope that helps, Mok.

J

 

[theotherwaldo]

The most effective armor-punchers that I have used were long, thin, and very hard.

Historically, they were called "bodkin points."

They were triangular or square in cross-section and looked like this, only with a sharper point and more gradual taper:

The best bodkin point spear that I made started out as a triangular file, which I dressed to a point on a wet rotary grindstone, incidentally dressing the wheel true in the process. The spear point shattered the fourth time I threw it, but only after it punched a neat hole through the fender of a '63 International truck - the toughest sheet metal that I had on hand.

 

[Mokwepa]

Here is the spear so far. It was more than just hard work but it looks OK, i think. Im a little woried about where the blade meets the socket area, not sure how strong itll be. It is wide and fairly (4mm) thick, but not sure if its thick enough. Whats your view?

Thanks for the info 7x57, i did basically what you said.

Going to forge the blade today.

OAL = 48cm
Blade length = 33cm
Socket = 15cm

 

[Mokwepa]

Here is a side on diagram of my spear. If i forged it like in the diagram, would this be stronger?



I missed the part on " leave more metal than you think you need "

 

[hso]

Any acute angles lead to greater likelihood of failure as they tend to focus stresses. The second drawing would not be stronger and instead would be more likely to fail.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Looks good to me.

Just remember, this kind of spear is expendable, like a rifle bullet. It is meant to concentrate a lot of energy in a very small space, but it is very likely to be damaged in the process.

So fine finishing and careful attention to detail are pretty much a waste of time, in this case. Like I said earlier, some spears are for show and some are to throw.

 

[Mokwepa]

HUGE,HUGE,HUGE disaster!!!

I was forging out the blade last night and when i was done and let it cool, I SAW IT......It cracked right where i thought it would, where the socket meets the blade
Suppose its life of car hunting is over before it began. The crack stretches about half way through the tang(what ever that part is called.

I supose i could turn it into a dagger or a shorter spear with a flat tang. I am so P&^$%$#ed off

 

[hso]

That's just part of the "fun" of forging.

Louis Mills, one of the truly GREAT Japanese-style blade smiths, forged a sword I have. Louis's work is so perfect other great blade smiths look up to him. Louis has been forging for decades. The sword I have is the only, ONLY, large blade that survived the year he made it. Every single sword he forged cracked or revealed some other catastrophic flaw that year.

Everybody has pieces fail and the important thing to do is to learn from it.

 

[messerist]

The majority of my knives are from scrap steel and files and they are full of hidden flaws. I wish I had a dime for evertime I found a crack or some other blemish that qualified under the :banghead:catagory. Keep your chin up and go make something better, then you'll feel better!

 

[Mokwepa]

Im going to have to, i feel quite sh&^%y right now. Ive designed another blade, a versatile machete/short gladius/spear head or camp knife rolled into one. Itll have paracord wrapped handle and basically be shaped like a gladius (double edged) that can be lashed to a pole (spear). Its going to be thick and very strong but simple.

Hope this turns out better. Going to cut the shape tomorrow. Ill keep you posted.

That's just part of the "fun" of forging.

Dont know if id call it "fun" but i supose it happens to all of us

 

[7X57chilmau]

AArgh, I hate it when that happens.... It really is easy to make the transition from socket to blade too weak. I've taken to leaving it very heavy, and grinding or forgeing it down after about all else is done.... And I seldom have to when that time comes.. Too big is just about enough

It did look like business, though! Pity.

J

 

[HoosierQ]

Make a dagger of it...or a spear without a socket.

 

[Mokwepa]

Think im going to do a dagger at a later stage. Im first going to make my BIG spear, somehow. Ive got a rough idea, but ill keep you posted as i go.

Going to have to sort out some car trouble for the next few days but as soon as i get a gap, ill light a fire and get cracking.

 

[T.A.DAVISON knife maker]

Louis Mills, one of the truly GREAT Japanese-style blade smiths, forged a sword I have. Louis's work is so perfect other great blade smiths look up to him. Louis has been forging for decades. The sword I have is the only, ONLY, large blade that survived the year he made it. Every single sword he forged cracked or revealed some other catastrophic flaw that year.

Everybody has pieces fail and the important thing to do is to learn from it

I wasn't forging, but I have built a couple folders that I bounced off the drive way.
Talk about your lesson for the day...... :banghead:

You gotta get back on the horse and ride.....

Later

Todd