Mokwepa
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Batterys flat. Will try in 30min.
Amateur Knife Making
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7X57chilmau
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Mok, don't take our criticisms to heart, without them improvement is difficult! Few would believe that one could turn out such a piece with only a couple weeks experience and 2 other blades produced, based largely on the guidance of a few guys (mostly amatures themselves) on the internet.
Your work is a testament to you and your tenacity and your creative vision. Every blade shape is a result of compromises and the smith's vision, and every shape has its weaknesses. The trick is to have a blade with mostly important strenghts to counter a few minor weaknesses.
Hso's right about rough surface blades being somewhat more rust prone, but if you are reasonably careful to put it away dry after use, it should be fine. From what little I know, you're not in one of the world's wettest places anyway, eh?
I've got great respect for the skills you've built in such short order, using the most basic equipment. Good on you!
J
Your work is a testament to you and your tenacity and your creative vision. Every blade shape is a result of compromises and the smith's vision, and every shape has its weaknesses. The trick is to have a blade with mostly important strenghts to counter a few minor weaknesses.
Hso's right about rough surface blades being somewhat more rust prone, but if you are reasonably careful to put it away dry after use, it should be fine. From what little I know, you're not in one of the world's wettest places anyway, eh?
I've got great respect for the skills you've built in such short order, using the most basic equipment. Good on you!
J
Mokwepa
Member
Thanks. Going to take some closeups now. Will post in about 10.
Mokwepa
Member
Here are some more.
7X57chilmau
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I'll say it again.... You did some real nice work there, Mok! I really like the guard's shape...
The blade has a touch of single-edged Kriss-ness to it, I think...
J
The blade has a touch of single-edged Kriss-ness to it, I think...
J
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
I like it! Wish i could do it. Still learning to grind on wood. But I will catch to you one of these years
Mok,
I'm not referring to hammer marks on the blade, it looks fine from that standpoint. Where you set your bevel at the ricasso is called the "plunge". You can see that there are some hammer marks there. That indicates that the piece "bounced" a little when you were setting the plunge and that the hammer didn't fall on the exact same spot while you were giving it a good whack. That can happen if you don't have a solid enough grip on the steel and it moves a bit or it can happen if you get in a hurry and don't land the hammer in the same place or it can happen when you don't hit hard enough on your first blow with the hammer. You also have to "feel" where the first blow set the plunge on the edge of the "anvil". Most of the time you make that first blow and the slide the blade back and forth a little feeling for the "dimple" the anvil made on the underside of the blade. When it drops in place you give it another hard blow to fully set the plunge. Those two blows should be all you need to start forging the bevel.
You're doing great, just keep reading and keep beating steel.
I'm not referring to hammer marks on the blade, it looks fine from that standpoint. Where you set your bevel at the ricasso is called the "plunge". You can see that there are some hammer marks there. That indicates that the piece "bounced" a little when you were setting the plunge and that the hammer didn't fall on the exact same spot while you were giving it a good whack. That can happen if you don't have a solid enough grip on the steel and it moves a bit or it can happen if you get in a hurry and don't land the hammer in the same place or it can happen when you don't hit hard enough on your first blow with the hammer. You also have to "feel" where the first blow set the plunge on the edge of the "anvil". Most of the time you make that first blow and the slide the blade back and forth a little feeling for the "dimple" the anvil made on the underside of the blade. When it drops in place you give it another hard blow to fully set the plunge. Those two blows should be all you need to start forging the bevel.
You're doing great, just keep reading and keep beating steel.
HoosierQ
Member
That is a very, very nice knife. Love the teak handle, very nice.
messerist
Member
You should be able to turn a wildebeest into steak tartare for the vultures in no time flat with that blade. Great job! One word of advice for you when making your guards. Measure the thickness and width where the guard meets the ricasso. Then undersize it just a little and transfer those measurements to your guard. Drill out the hole and then start filing out the guard a little at a time, checking your fit as you progress. Tight fitting guards are easiest to solder. Hope that helps with your guards. Again great work! Good luck!
Mokwepa
Member
Ok, Im keen to try a spear. Something like a Zulu Assagai.
How much harder is it to forge a socket type spear? Ive given it some thought and am a bit worried about the socket. I dont have a propper anvil so i dont know how im going to forge the socket into that cone shape. Anyone have some ideas for me?
How much harder is it to forge a socket type spear? Ive given it some thought and am a bit worried about the socket. I dont have a propper anvil so i dont know how im going to forge the socket into that cone shape. Anyone have some ideas for me?
Mokwepa
Member
OK, started playing with the bowie.
Can any of you guys give me some tests that i can put the bowie through. I would like to test edge holding capabilities and blade strength.
Dont know if the water bottle test is any good, been told its a good test for sharpness and handle/tang strength.
Can any of you guys give me some tests that i can put the bowie through. I would like to test edge holding capabilities and blade strength.
Dont know if the water bottle test is any good, been told its a good test for sharpness and handle/tang strength.
7X57chilmau
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You can see a spearhead I forged back on Page 1..... It's loosely based on this Anvilfire Iforge demo:
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/atli_spear/index.htm
Mine:
I forged mine from a high carbon railroad spike. High carbon is relative with a railroad spike, but ones marked with H or HC on the head are actually about 1040 steel, which with a water quench become suitably hard for spear use. No temper needed. 1040 is also much easier to spread the socket on, it must be forged out very thin. The bottom of my sockets is typically under 1mm thick.
I start with the point in the tongs and the head in the fire, aiming for a high yellow heat. I forge the head back into the spike's body. I ALWAYS forge the tang or socket or handle first, and the blade last. This helps to avoid bending up a forged blade unnecessarily, and avoids too many heats to the blade's steel after it's shaped. Take pains to avoid folding the head into the body, just drive it in without folds.
Then using a cross pein or straight pein hammer, I forge the head end of the spike out laterally, to begin to form the socket. The steel will spread towards the flats of the pein on the hammer, so this helps spread the steel in the direction you'd like. After many heats, you'll have a very ugly piece that looks rather like a garden trowel with a roughly triangular blade... At the top of the socket, try to forge in a spine that goes down about 2-3" into the socket, to carry bending forces from the blade into the socket. Like the vein on a leaf.
Continue spreading the socket until you've got enough material to make the socket. I aim my spearheads for 1-1/8" shafts, so that requires 1.125" X 3.14, or about 3.5" wide "trowel", and the socket is usually about 6-7" long. I clean up my sockets by cutting off the rough edges with a hardie or cold chisel.
Now flip the work and forge the blade you desire. The socket is still a flat triangular plate.
Once the blade is shaped, coax the socket into a conical shape. A pointed steel bar can help to form it around. The edges of the socket should about meet, but not overlap. The socket is left unwelded.
Straighten, normalize, heat to medium red and quench in water (or appropriate medium for the steel you're using... I'm using 1040 RR spike)....
Taper the end of your spear shaft to match the socket. Ram the head onto the shaft. The unwelded socket will spread slightly and grip the shaft very firmly. Drill thru both the socket and shaft, near the base of the socket, and pin the head to the shaft.
The spearhead's OAL is about 13", 6" blade, 7" socket/tang.
While I have yet to make one, there should be a steel fitting on the base of the spear too. This can be made from a piece of iron pipe, forged to a point at one end. Provides a wear surface, and a striking/stabbing piece on the butt....
Here's the first one I made, for a friend.... It's a bit rough, but it turned out OK. Also, I've used the same technique to turn out arrow points from 1/4" music wire.... But that needs more careful heat treat. Fun to make, a challenge in hammer and heat control. The arrowheads are about 3" OAL, and fit 5/16 shafts.
Arrowhead:
J
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/atli_spear/index.htm
Mine:
I forged mine from a high carbon railroad spike. High carbon is relative with a railroad spike, but ones marked with H or HC on the head are actually about 1040 steel, which with a water quench become suitably hard for spear use. No temper needed. 1040 is also much easier to spread the socket on, it must be forged out very thin. The bottom of my sockets is typically under 1mm thick.
I start with the point in the tongs and the head in the fire, aiming for a high yellow heat. I forge the head back into the spike's body. I ALWAYS forge the tang or socket or handle first, and the blade last. This helps to avoid bending up a forged blade unnecessarily, and avoids too many heats to the blade's steel after it's shaped. Take pains to avoid folding the head into the body, just drive it in without folds.
Then using a cross pein or straight pein hammer, I forge the head end of the spike out laterally, to begin to form the socket. The steel will spread towards the flats of the pein on the hammer, so this helps spread the steel in the direction you'd like. After many heats, you'll have a very ugly piece that looks rather like a garden trowel with a roughly triangular blade... At the top of the socket, try to forge in a spine that goes down about 2-3" into the socket, to carry bending forces from the blade into the socket. Like the vein on a leaf.
Continue spreading the socket until you've got enough material to make the socket. I aim my spearheads for 1-1/8" shafts, so that requires 1.125" X 3.14, or about 3.5" wide "trowel", and the socket is usually about 6-7" long. I clean up my sockets by cutting off the rough edges with a hardie or cold chisel.
Now flip the work and forge the blade you desire. The socket is still a flat triangular plate.
Once the blade is shaped, coax the socket into a conical shape. A pointed steel bar can help to form it around. The edges of the socket should about meet, but not overlap. The socket is left unwelded.
Straighten, normalize, heat to medium red and quench in water (or appropriate medium for the steel you're using... I'm using 1040 RR spike)....
Taper the end of your spear shaft to match the socket. Ram the head onto the shaft. The unwelded socket will spread slightly and grip the shaft very firmly. Drill thru both the socket and shaft, near the base of the socket, and pin the head to the shaft.
The spearhead's OAL is about 13", 6" blade, 7" socket/tang.
While I have yet to make one, there should be a steel fitting on the base of the spear too. This can be made from a piece of iron pipe, forged to a point at one end. Provides a wear surface, and a striking/stabbing piece on the butt....
Here's the first one I made, for a friend.... It's a bit rough, but it turned out OK. Also, I've used the same technique to turn out arrow points from 1/4" music wire.... But that needs more careful heat treat. Fun to make, a challenge in hammer and heat control. The arrowheads are about 3" OAL, and fit 5/16 shafts.
Arrowhead:
J
7X57chilmau
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That first pop bottle photo is awesome, Mok!
I don't consider pop bottles to offer any challenge to a decent tang, but they do show some sharpness and cutting ability. I play that way myself on occasion. A katana seems to be the hardest blade to weild properly to accomplish a good cut. My dagger performs similarly to your bowie.
A decent test of edge and blade strength is to chop a 2x4 in half. When the edge is firmly embedded, be sure to twist and reef on it. If it doesn't break or chip out, and the blade/tang holds up to extended chopping, you're doing well.
I destructively tested a small blade once just to see. It was a crude music wire blade, like my little pen knives. I clamped the tip in a bench vice and pulled. It flexed (with no perm. bend) to about 60 degrees over 2" of blade before breaking. I was OK with that.
I hate testing my creations to destruction, though, I'd have to say.
J
I don't consider pop bottles to offer any challenge to a decent tang, but they do show some sharpness and cutting ability. I play that way myself on occasion. A katana seems to be the hardest blade to weild properly to accomplish a good cut. My dagger performs similarly to your bowie.
A decent test of edge and blade strength is to chop a 2x4 in half. When the edge is firmly embedded, be sure to twist and reef on it. If it doesn't break or chip out, and the blade/tang holds up to extended chopping, you're doing well.
I destructively tested a small blade once just to see. It was a crude music wire blade, like my little pen knives. I clamped the tip in a bench vice and pulled. It flexed (with no perm. bend) to about 60 degrees over 2" of blade before breaking. I was OK with that.
I hate testing my creations to destruction, though, I'd have to say.
J
Mokwepa
Member
I agree, I dont want to break it, im just keen to see if my hardening and tempering were done OK.
7X57chilmau
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If your hardening and tempering are OK, spend some time hacking relatively heavy wood, using the knife as a hatchet. If:
The blade or tang breaks, it is too brittle or was overheated (which would show with a very coarse grain at the break)
The edge chips: Temper too hard.
The edge rolls or dents or burrs: Temper too soft
The blade or tang bends: Temper too soft or hardening failed. Possible low hardening temperature, or too slow cooling.
Knife stays straight, edge wears but doesn't burr or chip out: You got it right.
Spring steel is mighty tough stuff. You'll likely see edge wear and maybe a minor burr here or there, with generally good survival. That's been my experience...
Test tip strenght by stabbing the tip into wood, then pulling the butt over to cam it out. If the tip bends or cracks, you have an obvious problem. It should just dig itself out.
J
J
The blade or tang breaks, it is too brittle or was overheated (which would show with a very coarse grain at the break)
The edge chips: Temper too hard.
The edge rolls or dents or burrs: Temper too soft
The blade or tang bends: Temper too soft or hardening failed. Possible low hardening temperature, or too slow cooling.
Knife stays straight, edge wears but doesn't burr or chip out: You got it right.
Spring steel is mighty tough stuff. You'll likely see edge wear and maybe a minor burr here or there, with generally good survival. That's been my experience...
Test tip strenght by stabbing the tip into wood, then pulling the butt over to cam it out. If the tip bends or cracks, you have an obvious problem. It should just dig itself out.
J
J
Mokwepa,
Look up the ABS cutting competition test if you want a thorough test of the blade.
1 inch hemp or sisal rope free hanging cut (how many thicknesses will it cut in one chop)
Untreated framing 2X4 chopping (how long does it take to chop through a single framing stud)
How many cuts through 1 inch hemp or sisal rope can be made before it slides instead of cuts
Bending without taking a set or breaking (don't do this with your knife unless you're willing to watch it break or take a permanent bend)
Look up the ABS cutting competition test if you want a thorough test of the blade.
1 inch hemp or sisal rope free hanging cut (how many thicknesses will it cut in one chop)
Untreated framing 2X4 chopping (how long does it take to chop through a single framing stud)
How many cuts through 1 inch hemp or sisal rope can be made before it slides instead of cuts
Bending without taking a set or breaking (don't do this with your knife unless you're willing to watch it break or take a permanent bend)
Mokwepa
Member
Guys, im on leave for a week now.
I have started a Zulu fighting spear though and will update with pics when i get back from leave.
I have started a Zulu fighting spear though and will update with pics when i get back from leave.
That would be very interesting.
Any chance that there are any tribal smiths that you could send pictures of?
Any chance that there are any tribal smiths that you could send pictures of?
7X57chilmau
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I've been thinking (as I wallow in my ignorance of S. Africa) if there must not be some local smithing going on there, but that may be the result of watching too many movies.
I finally got around to making the spear butt-cap I mentioned a couple posts back this weekend. I neglected to get a photo though, I'll fix that when I get the chance....
The spear was the primary arm of the world's armies for millenia. More effective in unskilled hands than a sword, and a fraction the cost to produce (about as easy to make as a small dagger, but with a reach that far exceeds), one has been in the hand of every grunt in every campaign until the last couple hundred years.
Those grunts walked alot, APC's being in short supply. The spear was their staff. A wooden butt will quickly be worn short. So a steel cap is applied.
Since spear fighting techniques are the immediate decendants of rifle/bayonette forms, it can be seen that a butt-stroke is integral. So our butt cap might as well be an offensive weapon too....
The cap I made is a short socket-mounted bodkin style penetrating point. My spear shaft is 1.125" diameter. I started the cap with a bit of 1" pipe nipple (1.315" OD) that came out of my water well a couple years back. I cut off about 2" of unthreaded pipe, and the threads on one end. Had I a longer piece at hand, I'd have used it, but this was available, about 3" overall.
The nipple I had was galvanized, so I used a bench grinder to remove the bulk of the zinc to avoid the toxic effects of zinc heated to forging temps. I also ground off the threads, leaving part of the pipe thinner than I'd have liked. More on that later.
I placed the nipple in the forge and allowed the rest of the zinc to burn off while I found other things to do.
Now I held the hot nipple by the thick (previously unthreaded) end, and began forgeing down the previously threaded end. By continuously turning the piece while forgeing it in the corner between anvil table and anvilface, I was able to easily reduce the diameter of the pipe. I continued until the pipe was closed in, fluxing with Borax and forge welding the piece as it closed up..... It looked like a crude wine glass without a foot at this point. The thin steel where I'd ground the threads off was a bit weaker than I'd have preferred (this wouldn't be the case If I'd used enough material in the first place and hadn't had to use the threaded portion). I used my MIG setup to build it up a touch, then finished working it into a short bodkin, maybe 2" long and 3/8" thick at the point. I ground a 90 degree pyramidal point on it.
Then I held the piece by the point, and forged the socket down to match the shaft's OD, same as before, but slowly and carefully. I used my post vice as a caliper to compare.
Finally, I relieved the butt of the spear shaft until it was a very tight fit with the cap. Banged it on, making some pretty good chips in my basement floor in the process. Cross-drilled and pinned with a copper pin to finish.
This little project turned out far easier than I'd imagined. Preventing buckling of the pipe as you forge it down is easier than you'd think. It should wear well thru any number of miles, and I'd hate to be the unfortunate fellow with his head interposed between this implement and an immovable surface...
J
I finally got around to making the spear butt-cap I mentioned a couple posts back this weekend. I neglected to get a photo though, I'll fix that when I get the chance....
The spear was the primary arm of the world's armies for millenia. More effective in unskilled hands than a sword, and a fraction the cost to produce (about as easy to make as a small dagger, but with a reach that far exceeds), one has been in the hand of every grunt in every campaign until the last couple hundred years.
Those grunts walked alot, APC's being in short supply. The spear was their staff. A wooden butt will quickly be worn short. So a steel cap is applied.
Since spear fighting techniques are the immediate decendants of rifle/bayonette forms, it can be seen that a butt-stroke is integral. So our butt cap might as well be an offensive weapon too....
The cap I made is a short socket-mounted bodkin style penetrating point. My spear shaft is 1.125" diameter. I started the cap with a bit of 1" pipe nipple (1.315" OD) that came out of my water well a couple years back. I cut off about 2" of unthreaded pipe, and the threads on one end. Had I a longer piece at hand, I'd have used it, but this was available, about 3" overall.
The nipple I had was galvanized, so I used a bench grinder to remove the bulk of the zinc to avoid the toxic effects of zinc heated to forging temps. I also ground off the threads, leaving part of the pipe thinner than I'd have liked. More on that later.
I placed the nipple in the forge and allowed the rest of the zinc to burn off while I found other things to do.
Now I held the hot nipple by the thick (previously unthreaded) end, and began forgeing down the previously threaded end. By continuously turning the piece while forgeing it in the corner between anvil table and anvilface, I was able to easily reduce the diameter of the pipe. I continued until the pipe was closed in, fluxing with Borax and forge welding the piece as it closed up..... It looked like a crude wine glass without a foot at this point. The thin steel where I'd ground the threads off was a bit weaker than I'd have preferred (this wouldn't be the case If I'd used enough material in the first place and hadn't had to use the threaded portion). I used my MIG setup to build it up a touch, then finished working it into a short bodkin, maybe 2" long and 3/8" thick at the point. I ground a 90 degree pyramidal point on it.
Then I held the piece by the point, and forged the socket down to match the shaft's OD, same as before, but slowly and carefully. I used my post vice as a caliper to compare.
Finally, I relieved the butt of the spear shaft until it was a very tight fit with the cap. Banged it on, making some pretty good chips in my basement floor in the process. Cross-drilled and pinned with a copper pin to finish.
This little project turned out far easier than I'd imagined. Preventing buckling of the pipe as you forge it down is easier than you'd think. It should wear well thru any number of miles, and I'd hate to be the unfortunate fellow with his head interposed between this implement and an immovable surface...
J
Any zinc coated metal should be avoided for any forging if you can't remove all of the zinc before heating. There are too many sad stories of smiths being harmed by zinc fume to make it worthwhile.
7X57chilmau
Member
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Yup, this I know. All but trace was removed before placing the piece in the fire. I don't think any was present inside the pipe (it was pretty rusty), but did this to be sure.
All exterior zinc was ground off prior....
J
All exterior zinc was ground off prior....
J
theotherwaldo
Member
-That's why I stick with black-iron gas pipe wherever possible for this kind of stuff.
No, I don't 'smith - yet - but I weld a good bit.
Back in my Society for Creative Anachronism days I made a bunch of Roman-style pilae. The heads were made from junk throwing knives that were far too brittle for their original function. Many were already broken. I notched them on the grinding wheel and broke them to match their new function, then took them to a local school and used an EDM machine to make rivet holes.
Then I went to a dump site and scrounged up some slide bars for the sides of old baby beds to use as pilum shafts. They were a little large in diameter for scale, but, since we didn't want them to bend like the originals, that was OK. These were hammered straight, a flat was ground and hammered on one end to accept the blade, holes drilled, rivets made from de-tempered nails, then the whole thing was assembled on drilled-out shop broom sticks. Some had (black iron) pipe-nipple ferrules, others were wire-wrapped. We didn't reinforce the joints too much, as we preferred to break the stick rather than bend the rod.
They wound up looking like this, except that they had leaf-shaped blades:
No, I don't 'smith - yet - but I weld a good bit.
Back in my Society for Creative Anachronism days I made a bunch of Roman-style pilae. The heads were made from junk throwing knives that were far too brittle for their original function. Many were already broken. I notched them on the grinding wheel and broke them to match their new function, then took them to a local school and used an EDM machine to make rivet holes.
Then I went to a dump site and scrounged up some slide bars for the sides of old baby beds to use as pilum shafts. They were a little large in diameter for scale, but, since we didn't want them to bend like the originals, that was OK. These were hammered straight, a flat was ground and hammered on one end to accept the blade, holes drilled, rivets made from de-tempered nails, then the whole thing was assembled on drilled-out shop broom sticks. Some had (black iron) pipe-nipple ferrules, others were wire-wrapped. We didn't reinforce the joints too much, as we preferred to break the stick rather than bend the rod.
They wound up looking like this, except that they had leaf-shaped blades:
Greebe
Member
I know its not a knife but here is a tomahawk that I reforged, shaped, and heat treated from a poorly designed tomahawk. It was good steel but a crappy design. The blade was very fat and needed to be thinned and had a funny up swept blade. I did this project when I was about 17 in my dads shop. That was 12 years ago and it has seen heavy use in Alaska and it is still going strong. I even re-tempered the blade once over a charcoal fire while out in the Alaskan Bush.
It usually was fitted with a hickory handle but when it wore out while out in the bush all I had around was diamond willow, so I made this one quickly with the idea that I would re handle it when I got somewhere to buy a piece of hickory. That was 4 years ago now and the diamond willow has held up much better than hickory ever did. I am now sold on the willow for tomahawk handles. Anyways enough talk, here is the photo:
Greebe
It usually was fitted with a hickory handle but when it wore out while out in the bush all I had around was diamond willow, so I made this one quickly with the idea that I would re handle it when I got somewhere to buy a piece of hickory. That was 4 years ago now and the diamond willow has held up much better than hickory ever did. I am now sold on the willow for tomahawk handles. Anyways enough talk, here is the photo:
Greebe
7X57chilmau
Member
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Nice work, Gentlemen!
Greebe, this thread isn't really limited to knives, I think, despite the title.... It has grown beyond what Mokwepa intended, I think, and so has he!
One thing's for sure.... I'm glad I'm not one of the poor saps in the front lines of some long forgotten army of yore. Man, that was an aweful, bloody art.
J
Greebe, this thread isn't really limited to knives, I think, despite the title.... It has grown beyond what Mokwepa intended, I think, and so has he!
One thing's for sure.... I'm glad I'm not one of the poor saps in the front lines of some long forgotten army of yore. Man, that was an aweful, bloody art.
J
messerist
Member
This thread is getting better with every post! Keep it up boys! I got some things in the works and will post asap. Good Luck!
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