Amazing-400 yards with a 22lr specialty pistol?

[xphunter]

This project has taken a lot longer to get to this point than I expected it to, but I am very pleased with the performance.
I was able to shoot this clone 10-22/MOA handgun (chambered in 22lr) for the first time this fall, but it wasn't feeding correctly.
In spite of that it was shooting lights out at 50 and 100 yards.
Hunting, holidays and winter time have kept me busy.
The weather has been good the past two days, and I had time to run out and do some shooting. I had three different boxes of ammo. I zeroed it at 100 yards, standing, shooting off of a tripod table that was not completely stable.
Got it zeroed and wrote down the MOA for drop and drift.
Then we begin to guess (we were just having fun) at how much MOA it would take to get to 200 yards, then to 300, and then to 400 yards.
We went from one brand of ammo to the next in the midst of this, and all three brands were shooting great.
A local game warden (He is the one I called about the goose") was there and put three in one elongated hole (sub 1/4 MOA) at 100 yards.
First time he had ever shot it-He was happy for sure. He also shot it at 200 with very consistent hits.
My spotter, (Miles) shot it also and hit with relative ease at 200 yards on steel.
When I got on steel at 400 yards Chuck (Mac's Gunworks) called a center hit and I quickly sent another. Tried a third shot but it had jammed.
Those two shots measured 1.5" at 400 yards.
Chuck also told me I had 4 shots at 300 around 2"

Spotting was done with 5-22 NXS scope that was mounted on a custom 7mm SAUM Rifle, and a Leupold 12-40 spotting scope
By the time we got the fire shell out conditions had changed.
There were about 8 people in all out there this afternoon shooting.

Action is a MOA clone 10-22 action that Rich makes http://www.moaguns.com/
Barrel is a threaded Green Mountain.
Laminated stock is one of Rich's. Just put a quick finish on it.
Will round off some of the lines in the future.
Kidd trigger.
Picatinny rail by Rich.
Scope is Leupold VX-3 LR/T 6.5-20 With ART Reticle.
The ART Reticle made it so easy to get on target with, and make quick adjustments trying to get the MOA correct when making 100 yard jumps.
I should have chronoed the ammo, and had an idea of BC, but we were just out having fun. After were finished at distance, I went back to 100, re-zeroed and slipped my dials.
Didn't have time to take it to 500 yards, but don't really see that being an issue given the accuracy we are getting.

Pics are not good, but give you an idea.
I really had fun.
This will be a great wind teaching SP for sure

 

[CraigC]

That's some damn fine shooting! I was tickled stupid to get 3/4"@100yds, with a 10/22 rifle!

So how did you manage to get on target at 400yds? Is the scope base heavily canted? Did you figure out how much drop there was at that range? I know that shooting at 200yds there's roughly 50" of drop and that a 20MOA mount will get you zeroed with room to spare. The naysayers will be along shortly but until you try it, you have no idea that making hits on relatively small targets is rather easy at 200yds. With an accurate rifle. I can ping that 4" steel swinger nearly every time (lasered at 236yds).

 

[jmorris]

You are looking at 156" of drop at 300, thats 13 feet. 12" of that drop is from 290 to 300 yards. What did you use as an aim point to compensate for the drop?

 

[xphunter]

Good questions.
I like to play at distance with specialty handguns and have for some time.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/1500-yard-prairie-dogs-1.php
I am used to the naysayers.
I can give you phone numbers for the two that were spotting for me.
I have Chuck's and I can get Miles (man pictured shooting my clone charger).
We were shooting on a 1200 yard steel range that is just outside Chuck's shop, Mac's Gunworks. He has a backer for paper targets at 100 and 200 yards. Steel starts at 200 out to 1200 yards in 100 yard increments.

First, I had a sloped picatinny rail made, as I had this put together with distance in mind.

Second, I am using a 30 mm tube Leupold LR/T.

Third, it has Holland's ART reticle in it http://www.hollandguns.com/ Click on Advanced Reticle Technology.
Holland' reticle is my favorite for LR shooting.
MOA is internally listed in 3 MOA increments, with a dash/line every 1.5 MOA.
This made it very easy and fast to get on target when not knowing BC or MV.
Then once I got to 24 MOA, I dialed from that point on, using the 24 MOA line as my aiming point.

When going to 500, if I run out of MOA adjustment, I will add Burris Signature Zee Rings (can put on 20 MOA there) or have a another sloped rail built.

Shooting distance (after doing your homework and getting your shooting system put together correctly) is more of an issue of what you believe you can or cannot do, than what can actually be done.
You have to be willing to fail to succeed in what many believe to be impossible or highly unlikely.

 

[jonmerritt]

I have had people scoff at me and say it's impossable, while I sit there and put rounds on target (consistantly) at 200 yards with a 22 rifle. They watch me do it and say it can't be done. Okay, if you say so. Oh, and it is not a target rifle, just a nice shooting savage.

 

[xphunter]

Jon,
You are so right!
Two summers ago me and a friend (Dave Viers http://www.blackdiamondrifles.com/ ) were working on my 2000 yard prairie dog goal, with a custom specialty pistol he had built. The methane industry was quite active on the ranch we were at, and we visited, with some of the workers to let them know we knew were they were at, make sure they didn't have a problem with it, where we would be shooting, etc.
They asked normal curious questions and two of the guys ended up coming over to where we were at to watch. The next day we saw a truck coming toward us from behind us on the two-track, so we popped the bolt open and sat back so they would know they were safe, but the truck didn't drive by.
Another worker who had not been there the previous day had visited with at least one of the other guys and they told him what were were working on. He didn't believe it, so he decided to check it out for himself. Winds were higher than we wanted that day. Anyway after some visiting, and showing him the equipment, Dave was able to talk him into getting behind the spotting scope. We found a dog beyond 2k, and my first shot was about one foot to the left of the pd, elevation looked to be right on. The guy about had a heart attack right there. He said, "You almost hit him!"
I said, "No I was about a foot to the left." He said, No you almost hit him.
He said, "What you just did is not possible."
I said, "You just saw it with your own eyes."
"Yes, but that is not possible."
We tried to get him to fire off some rounds but he was unwilling.
We flipped three dogs off mounds during that shoot, but no kills beyond 2K.

"I have had people scoff at me and say it's impossable, while I sit there and put rounds on target (consistantly) at 200 yards with a 22 rifle. They watch me do it and say it can't be done. Okay, if you say so. Oh, and it is not a target rifle, just a nice shooting savage. "

 

[jmorris]

How many total MOA do you have to work with that setup? How much did you machine into the base? I can tell from your photos.

Shooting distance (after doing your homework and getting your shooting system put together correctly) is more of an issue of what you believe you can or cannot do, than what can actually be done.

I have found at those distances, with the 22 lr, the (any) wind plays a large part. I am not a naysayer as I have played with long range .22 quite a bit. I even have a 5 shot 5/8" 300 yard group but it took the perfect day to get there.

 

[xr1200]

This sounds to hard to believe, most 22lr bolt action target rifles with all the bells and whistles done to them have trouble shooting under an 1" group at a 100 yrds.

Also a 10/22 based autos in rifles and pistols usually only do 1" groups best at 50 yrds.

So from my position, I would not believe these groups, unless they were fired in competition documented and showed proof or if from an independent source.

22lr ammo is very severly effected by wind drift, which you have no control over.

Lets see your 10 shot groups at 50, 100, 200 yrds.

 

[rnr4me]

xr1200

Also a 10/22 based autos in rifles and pistols usually only do 1" groups best at 50 yrds.

Don't tell the guys at rimfirecentral that. They do much better than that all the time.
W/ my 3 10-22's I can do 3/4 moa at 100yds with out really trying. And my optics aren't anything to brag about. Just normal .22 scopes. I have messed w/ the internals tho.

 

[xphunter]

jmorris,
Well I have 90 total MOA with the scopes internals, 24 MOA in the Holland ART Reticle, and 20-40 MOA in the sloped base (I can't remember, I need to call Rich and ask him what he did).
So at a minimum, I have 89 MOA if I have a 20 MOA pic rail.

XR100,
It is okay, I am used to "doubting Thomas'"
I have not even shot a 10 shot group with it at any distance.
As I mentioned in my first post, it is only the second time I have ever shot it.
No one is twisting your arm to force you to believe it.

You also don't need to believe that I own a shoot a center-grip 338 Lapua Improved single shot specialty pistol (XP-100), that has a high magnification riflescope on it either.
It pushes a 300 grain SMK or Berger just below 2700 FPS.
I shoot it off of a Harris BRM S series bi-pod with pod-lok one handed while running a small field bag with my right hand, controlling the height adjustment. That is the way I shoot all of my specialty handguns when prone or off of the bench when using a bi-pod.

You are welcome to come to Gillette, and shoot both of them yourself.
If you come you are likely to meet some of the folks who shot it themselves.
In fact, I would give them a call and they could spot for you if you want.
Two of the guys who shot it (Miles & a Game Warden - Both shoot long-range with center-fire rifles) can attest to it as does Chuck McIntosh (Mac's Gunworks).
There were some guys shooting the 7mm SAUM out to 1k while we were shooting as well.
While some others were plinking with some other guns.
No secrets here.
First, this is not a Ruger 10-22 action.
It is a clone 10-22 action. They are sold at Brownells as well. http://www.moaguns.com/rec10_22.html
Threaded barrel...
Kidd trigger-About as light as you can get in a 10-22 format.
The smith put the action in a solid fixture, and had three chambered barrels (Benchmark, Douglas, and a Green Mountain).
Groups were fired with several different brands with each barrel at 100 yards.
The Green Mountain shot tighter groups than the other two to our surprise.
I was betting on the Benchmark--I would have lost.
You can guess which barrel is on that action

We had really good conditions on Saturday.
I understand about the wind-I live in Wyoming.

I have a friend who typically uses this phrase when people are trying wrap their minds around LR shooting, "The biggest hindrance to LR shooting is the 6 inches between your ears!"
E

 

[xr1200]

"W/ my 3 10-22's I can do 3/4 moa at 100yds with out really trying."

I'd like to see these groups shot in a match with certified proof, no way you tell if groups were really fired at a shorter distance, with out documentation.

The most accurate rim fire I ever seen shoot is a custom 10/22 magnum, converted to 17hmr. clark barrel, volquartsen trigger group, luepold scope and glassed bedded stock, it would shoot .300" three shot groups at 100 yrds and a savage bolt action 17hrm it was just about as accurate.

The groups the OP is posting would be hard to do with a 7mm target rifle, let alone 22lr firing from a bipod. I even doubt if you could do it with a machine rest in with a 22lr pistol.

If you think you can actually get such accuracy out of a 22lr pistol , show me some other websites or magazine acticles that show similar results.

The plain facts are that if a gun shoots 1" at a 100yrds. then at 200 yrds it will be 2" groups and at 300 yrds. about 4", this is a known fact, the MOA increases as the distance increases.

 

[xphunter]

Well, sounds like a road trip is in order
1/4 or .25 MOA (it was a 3-shot group not a five or ten shots) at 100 yards.
When I got on at 400 yards I had two on target (not 3-10 shots), and as I mentioned I had a jam. Those 2 shots were 1.5 inches.
Could the wind have blown the second shot close to the first? Yes.
I am telling what happened.
Can I repeat it? I sure plan on trying to.
The funny thing is that the sub 1/4" group @ 100 yards wasn't even shot by me, but a local Game Warden.

Shooters MOA would be 1" @ 100, 2"@ 200, 3"@ 300, and 4" (True MOA 4.188") @ 400 yards.
1/4MOA @ 100 yards is .25", .5"@ 200 yards, .75" @ 300 yards, and 1" at 400 yards.

1MOA @ 400 yards is approximately 4", 1/2 MOA is approximately 2", and 1/4 MOA is approximately 1".
You must not live around many BR shooters.
I am looking forward to shooting it off of my SEB or NEO (Joystick coaxial rests), but I use a bi-pod more than a front rest.
You cannot convince someone that already has their mind made up, but I must admit, it has been a little fun trying.
Would you believe that a 15 year old at long-range specialty pistol competition, in the shoot-off at 1,000 yards, would put 4 shots under 3 inches at 1K?
One of the 5 shots went high though, but he still had a 8.375" group at 1K.
http://home.comcast.net/~MOA_Shooters/MOA2009shootphotos.htm
Am I a proud father? You betcha.
Look through the rest of the website. My son is 16 years old now.
I will put him against most folks when he using one of my XP-100's specialty pistols from the bench or from field positions. Oh, you can use your rifle

 

[788Ham]

xphunter,

...... and I'll bet he can't even whistle Happy Trails!

 

[WNTFW]

XP Hunter,
I have been to Gillette Wyomong - long time ago & a few girlfriends before my wife.

I am curious what ammo do you use? Also do you sort or uniform the ammo in any way?

I did shoot in some heavy wind with a .22lr. As long as the wind was steady it was not that bad. When the wind would change it was rough.

Some of the stuff Holland guns has is neat.

Do y'all score by group size or use the scoring rings in the MOA match?

 

[CraigC]

This one built with a Nodak/Spud receiver, Clark barrel, R/T bolt and Boyd's stock does 3/8"@50yds and 3/4"@75yds with Wolf MT. This with a 4.5lb modified factory trigger group, before the KID in the picture and no bedding. Once properly bedded and tuned, it will probably creep into the half-MOA range with preferred loads. Want proof? Don't have any.

 

[xphunter]

The ammo I used:
Remington Club XTRA (manufactured by Eley LTD), Federal Gold Medal Match, Federal Champion.

Don't have any kind of chamber checker or uniformer.
I typically play with center-fire stuff at LR, not rimfire.
I will do serious load development (trying different brands/types) looking for a combo of MV and accuracy with distance in mind.

Darrell is a friend, and I help him teach some of his 4-day long-range shooting schools.
The LR match that Rich Mertz of MOA puts on every June is really cool. We added a roving field course this past year and will continue it this year.
For the bench part, it is about the group size not score.
There are two classes: Light pistol and Heavy pistol.
In each class you will shoot three 5-shot groups at each distance (you have sighter periods of course). Then the top two aggs from each relay got to the shoot-off for that distance. So then if you shoot well, you will end up shooting a fourth time at that distance.
We would love to have you come and shoot. Rich usually has a couple of MOA's with ammo ready to go if you give him a heads up. You will need to pay for the ammo, but I promise you , you will have a lot of fun.

Craig,
Great shooting for iron sights and a heavy trigger pull! I am unworthy

 

[Bigmaclr]

I think it's pretty funny guys are so quick to judge what they themselves can' do, maybe if they did it just once they would understand. On the other hand never did you say that it was repeated or even repeatable you just said that you were screwing around, I think it's funny that he can't do it so he can't make himself believe it. ROGLMAO

 

[jonmerritt]

wow, I guess taking a coyote at 500 yards with a .270 must be impossible too. Some people crack me up

 

[xr1200]

It is common to take woood chucks and prairie dogs at 500 yrds with a high power center fire rifle. What we are talking about here is 1.5" groups at 400 yrds with 22lr rimfire 10/22 pistol Can it be done consistantly for 3-5 shot groups, flukes don't count.

 

[xphunter]

I haven't quite figured out what you are arguing about, as there was never a claim that it was 3-5 shot groups.
In fact, I stated how many shots were fired ;D
I will do more serious shooting later on, but I was just thrilled with how the afternoon went shooting off of bi-pod.

If we get great conditions and shoot a 3-shot or 5-shot group at 400 or 500 yards that is 1 MOA or under, I seriously doubt you would believe it anyway.
What you believe or dis-believe will not have anything to do whether I accomplish it or not.
Let me tell you up front, I expect to do it.
Once I get the right ammo and the right conditions.
Also, plan to make the 500 yard VHA on a pd with a rimfire specialty pistol.

I rarely shoot pd's under 1,000 yards with my specialty pistols, but I did this past fall after we had a fun field steel shoot (primarily 300-600 yards) with a group from our church. We are already planning one for the spring once the weather breaks.
Erik will have more competition this time as there has been an upgrade in guns and optics by others.

My son and I used specialty pistols of course, built by Chuck McIntosh (Mac's Gunworks)
http://macsgunworks.com/default.aspx
He also did the cerakote camo job on both rigs
My son was shooting a center grip XP-100 chambered in 7mm SAUM, shooting 162 Amax.
I was shooting a rear grip BAT action, McRee stock in 6.5 Leopard (6.5x 270WSM Norma brass) shooting 130 grain Bergers.
I think we had 11 in all shooting.
Erik won the fun match (I was primarily spotting but did shoot one shot at each target with the Leopard) with my XP. Spotting scope is Vortex's Razor HD. I had the 30x Wide Angle lens on with the mil-radian reticle. Made spotting easier when calling correction. Can't wait till they get the MOA reticle for it ready

After that we did some dogging with the guy and far left (custom 300 RUM) spotting for me.
Most at the distance of 400 to just over 500 yards.
All I can say not many of them required more than one-shot. But I did miss some at those distances.
The 130 Bergers gave some spectacular acrobatics, if you know what I mean

 

[xr1200]

So can or can't you shoot these 1.5", 3-5 shot 400 yrd. groups all day with your 10/22 pistol - YES OR NO ?

I shot and customized xp100's to for about 20 yrs. for target shooting and deer and varmit hunting and I know how accurate they can be, mainly due to the rigid short barrel and solid single bolt action. I agree the modified xps' are very accurate and often beat most bolt rifles at 100 yrd. groups

The groups you show for your son were shot with a highly modifed xp100 center fire, not a rimfire.

 

[xphunter]

Hmm, What has been said so far?
Have I done any repeated intentional group shooting yet at any distance ? Duh---No. It was only the second time I have shot it.
I stated that in the OP.
Was Saturday's shooting, just goofing around? Yes
We were standing up leaning onto this round top table that were shooting off of. No one shot it from the seated position or off of a tri-pod front rest.

Let me be plain here (thought I already have been), it would be stupid to say anyone can shoot a rimfire or centerfire for that matter, all day long at 400 yards and always keep 3-5 shot groups at 1.5".

Do I believe I will shoot more groups at 100 yards that group in or around 1/4 MOA @ 100 yards? Yes!

Do you enjoy being argumentative? :banghead:
Not sure, but I am leaning one way on that.
At least you seem to be more willing to believe that what was originally posted, actually happened.

Under good conditions, do I think it is possible to get a couple of groups around 1.5" at 400 yards?
Yes, and I intend to work toward that goal.

Will I do these things with you in mind?
No, you are not that special. It is not about you.
These are things I am working toward are for myself, and for Rich Mertz at MOA.
Repeatable all day long? No!
Have I missed targets at 400-500 yards? YES!

Do I believe I will kill a pd beyond 500 yards with this 10-22 MOA clone action specialty pistol chambered in 22lr and have one or more VHA members with me? YES!

Am I confident of my shooting determination and the accuracy potential of this specialty pistol? YES!

Did I ever imply my son was shooting a rimfire in the pictures of him? NO!
I was showing what a teenager can do with a specialty pistol at LR.
FYI-He has used 6mm-6.5x47 Lapua, 260 Rem, 6.5-284, and 7mm SAUM more than anything else. He will also being using a 6.5x47 Lapua some this spring and summer in a MOA Maximum.

I listed the chambering (7mm SAUM/162 A-Max), and on the MOA website it is quite evident he was shooting a centerfire at 1K (say like a Brux barrel 1-8, 6.5-284/140 A-max).
Are all of my XP-100's highly modified? You betcha

Do I think you are a "Doubting Thomas?" Yes, but I wish you were closer so you could see and shoot it for yourself.

 

[Zeke Markham]

The thing I find most hard to believe about all this is the <1 MOA group at 1000 yards with one of these "long range specialty pistols."

 

[xphunter]

Zeke,
I understand the difficulty.
It is one thing to shoot a MOA or sub MOA group @ 1K when you are out practicing and another thing to do it at a match.
Erik was 15 years old at the time.
He was using a SEB Rest ( sebcoax.com).
Rear grip XP-100, Trued action by Gregg Tannel/Gre-Tan Rifles, Jewell trigger, McMillan BR stock with lead added (I had this built to compete in 1000 yard light gun class against rifles.
Brake, chambering and stock bedding done by Jim See of Center Shot Rifles.
Click on the link to the article that Mark wrote in American Handgunner.
You will then have to go to page 99 of the magazine to finish the article.
http://www.moaguns.com/coldturkey.html
Or you can call Rich Mertz of MOA Guns and he can tell you himself. He was doing the scoring. The phone number is at the bottom of the page of the site.
Ask for Rich.

Jim See's info:
http://www.centershotrifles.com/
http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/miscellaneous.php

 

[xr1200]

Thanks for clearing it up, my point was that from my experience it is hard enough hit even a wood chuck or praire dog at 150 yrds with a 22lr rifle, let alone with 22 pistol.

Due to the pistols reduced velocity and even in a rifle hold over is so exterme for 22lr. 348" ( 29' foot hold over for 400 yrds) and 588" ( 49' foot hold over at 500yrds.)

I'm not trying to argue with you.

There are many factors that effect long range accuracy, even the shooting bench you are using in the pics, is not that stable and causes point of impact shift, from simple table movement and vibration.

So you have all the following factors that will effect your long range groups.
1. shooting platform or table
2. shooting rest
3. trigger pull
4. action lockup consistency
5. ammo consistency
6. wind drift at different ranges
7. human error
8. 10/22 is not an inheritly accurate platform, compared to other actions.

So I'll give you credit if you can do this consistanty in good conditions.

Discussion is done from my point