Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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My feelings have nothing to do with it. I'm talking personal experience and you're spouting conjecture.

You just don't/won't open your mind.

It's YOUR feelings that are the problem.

It has nothing to do with how tight or loose a gun is fitted.
Take a fully functioning 1911 pattern pistol. ANY brand. It' doesn't matter.
Baer, Wilson, Colt, Norinco, Rock River, Rock Island, Kimber or your brother-in-law's dremeled Essex/Llama.
Install a new small radius firing pin stop as detailed above. And then try and tell us that the force/energy needed to cycle the slide is not greater.

You know. You're not really even listening. All you want to do is argue.
From now on you can argue with yourself because this is all I'm going to be seeing.
This message is hidden because jungle is on your ignore list.
Click to expand...
:neener:

You just are no longer worth my time.
 
All I know is Im pretty new to 1911's, and this is a topic you can learn somethings from. Like for instance, I know what that doowhatchee majigger is called that cocks the hammer :D

....Ive also learned, if you have problems with a 1911, see 1911Tuner...lol
 
All I know is that Tuner has never let me travel down the wrong path. My Springer has been 100% reliable, due to Tuner. I have the EGW firing pin stop,this has been the best modification on my gun period.:D
 
Stop

Lordy mercy! Are we still arguin' about this?:D

I started using the small radius because it was a good way to reduce frame to slide battering without the drawbacks of a heavier recoil spring...and I noticed that one of the secondary effects was that the muzzle flip was less sharp. Further testing revealed that the reduction was due to the slide's impact with the frame...the tertiary recoil...rather than in the actual firing-induced "kick". It made sense, so I took it a step further and shot a gun with
shock buffers to see how much difference in buffer life the stops would make. It made a noticeable difference, with the buffers lasting about 20% longer when used with a 1/16th stop radius. I found that I could even get the buffs to last a bit longer with 14 pound recoil springs and the small radius as opposed to 16-pound springs and the now standard 7/32nds radius...and I knew that I was onto something.

Then I started paying closer attention to the performance of the gun in quick target aquisition on follow-up shots...and it, too was signifigant....especially with lighter than standard recoil springs that reduced the spring's secondary
effect. Simply put, the gun just doesn't "whip" as hard when the slide smacks the frame. Some notice an immediate difference in the way the gun cycles, and others don't really notice it until they shoot with a timer on fast, multiple targets. They don't have to fight to get the gun back down, and some have even had to retrain to prevent throwing their followup shots low.
One guy said that he didn't really feel much difference, but noticed that when his smallish 12 year-old daughter fired the gun, that the muzzle didn't flip nearly as much in her hand as before...rising only to about 30 degrees as opposed to nearly 60 degrees with the 7/32nds stop...with no other changes.


Jungle...I realize that you don't see how this can be, and all I can suggest is that you try it for yourself and see if the gun isn't noticeably more "pleasant"
to shoot with full-power ammo. It's not a simple matter of a small amount of extra resistance. It's WHERE that extra resistance occurs that makes the whole exceed the sum. Putting the brakes on the slide just as it starts to move will do more to reduce its terminal velocity than adding resistance near the end of its travel.

And remember the Bumblebee and all those smart engineers who have proven that it can't fly...and ol' Bob the Bumblebee just nods, shrugs...and flies away.
 
Tight Baer

Jungle wrote:

>Let's take the example of a Baer 1911, which many observe to be very tightly fitted in lockup, and very difficult to rack by hand.<
****************

Another misconception that exists is that the gun is "Locked up tightly" when
it goes to battery. When static/in-battery, the gun isn't "locked" up. It's held in battery by the recoil spring's tension, and...if tightly fitted...by a wedging action provided by the lack of clearance between the barrel hood and locking lug faces...and the lower barrel lug/slidestop pin/ upper lug vertical interface...but the gun is not locked. It locks when it fires, and unlocks when the bullet exits. And...yes...The fact that the gun is more difficult to hand-cycle from in-battery does have a small effect. Anything that CAN have an effect on the slide's movement WILL have an effect on the slide's movement. In this case, the effect is even shorter-lived than the hammer's because the hammer offers resistance for a longer time.
 
I think the mathematical proof is missing an item. The height at which a pivoting mass is hit.It takes much less effort/time to tackle by hitting the knees first than hitting with the initial impact at the ankles.
 
Tiro Filo

Ah! The Venezuelan Rocket Scientist! Sorry...I get lost within the first few paragraphs when I read his stuff. he goes a little too far off on the tangent for my simple mind to follow. Jungle, mah fren...I ain't much of a mathematician, and I sure ain't an engineer...but you're still tryin' to use a straw man to disprove something that too many people have experienced first-hand. Hell...if I had a spare stop here, I'd cut one and send it to ya along with the recoil and mainsprings so you could try it...but I can't seem to keep one on hand. Soon as i get a few, somebody's beatin' on my door for me to fit one to a pistol for'em.
 
Thanks Tuner, but I've got all the parts I'll ever need. If someone feels a change with a given modification that's great. I am just trying to quantify what we are dealing with. This is not to challenge you or anyone else, just to present another viewpoint.
Tuner, you are extremely helpful and know more about the 1911 than I ever will and as I said, I am neutral on this but enjoy pondering the how and why. Please don't take it the wrong way and understand I have the highest respect for your knowledge on things 1911.
 
Viewpoints

Awwwwww...C'mon Jungle! Ain'tcha the least bit curious to see what it's all about?

Remember the wisdom imparted to us by the late, great Yogi Berra:
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice...they ain't.":cool:

Another one is:

"When the calculations don't agree with the results of the experiment...go with the results."

;)

The "modification" is actually a return to the original FROM a modification done by the Army Ordnance Board...and I doubt that Browning had any input, other than maybe a phone call to ask him if it would hurt anything. He probably answered: "Sure. it's your pistol. Do whatever ya want." By that time, he had already moved on to other things, and it didn't likely make much difference to him one way or another. By the way...Check out an original WW2-era High-Power, and you'll see the same 5/64ths radius on the stop.
Interesting...Browning doubtless knew of the AOB's modification, yet he stuck to his design on that point, even on the lighter recoiling P-35. Don't know about anybody else, but I have to defer to JMB on such things. Many people can't seem to accept that he knew more about his design than anybody alive today.
 
Tuner, you've got me interested.

Sad, but I just now discovered this thread.

Can't claim that I read it all, as I skipped from page two to page... 8!?! Good heavens.

The concept escaped me for a few seconds, but now makes some sense... as a possibility. That said, it looks like a cheap, non-permanent way to attempt to improve a pistol's handling, that can be proven or disproven in a matter of a couple of magazines, without harming (that I can see) the pistol.

The only increased wear that I can possibly see is on the (utterly replaceable) mainspring, which probably is suffering more wear right now by sitting in my lockbox in cocked-'n'-locked condition. :)

Hokay. I'm gonna try it. I'm in love with my 1911, and shoot it quite well, but it's still a .45, and I do shoot full-house loads in it regularly. Perfect double taps are a joy to behold, as are same-hole controlled pairs. Why wouldn't I want to make my 230g loads feel like 200g loads? :confused:

Tuner, can this be done at distance? (Say, by sending my existing F.P. stop?)

--Matt
 
Why

Howdy Matt. The change was effected in response to the cavalry personnel's complaints that the gun was too difficult to hand-cycle in a hurry
with the hammer down...which was the required method of carry unless action was iminent. Problem with that was...sometimes iminent action didn't give a helluva lotta warning. The "cure" was to cut a larger radius on the stop to raise the stop's contact point on the hammer, and increase the mechanical advantage in overcoming the mainspring. And the mainspring won't wear any faster than with the 7/32nds stop radius. You do, however, want the radius to contact the hammer straight across, or it'll throw a side-load on the hammer pin.

Check your PMs...
 
Just one more thing, can you point me to the documentation that shows Colt modified the design without any input from JMB?
Click to expand...

The U.S. Army adopted the Colt .45 pistol on March 29, 1911 when the company received the following notification:

I am instructed by the Chief of Ordnance to inform you that the Colt automatic pistol, caliber .45 tested at the Springfield Armory beginning March 15, 1911, has passed the prescribed tests and has been adopted for the service in place of the Colt Army Revolver, caliber .38.

Lt. Col. John T. Thompson.
Click to expand...

Following this notification Colt was issued a production contract, and John Browning passed out of the picture, except to receive royalties on his patents. His job was to design the pistol, and that phase was finished. Thereafter any discussions or orders to make modifications were between the prime contractor (Colt) and the Ordnance Department.

In January, 1918 at about serial number 240,000 the radius of the rounded edge on the bottom of the firing pin stop was increased from .078”R to 7/32”R. This permitted easier cocking of the hammer by recoil of the slide. The change was initiated by Colt.

Colt.45 Service Pistols; C. W. Clawson.
Click to expand...
 
heh. Fuff...by 1918, Browning was up to his neck in so many other things that he probably hadn't even seen a 1911 pistol in five years.
Click to expand...

Exactly. John Browning made his fortune (and a sizeable one) by designing guns and patenting the key features. Then he would go to major manufacturers (Colt, Winchester, Fabrique Nationale, etc.) and lease them the right to use his patents in exchange for a royalty to be paid on each gun made. In the case of the Government Model of 1911 he went further and worked with Colt’s in designing and perfecting a new service pistol for the U.S. armed forces. He knew darn well if the Army adopted the Colt pistol (which they did) and he got a cut on each gun made, plus a piece of Colt’s commercial production (including foreign military contracts) he’d be rolling in bucks. If Colt’s and/or the Army wanted to make changes he couldn’t care less so long as they paid him his royalty. If they wanted advice he was always available as a paid consultant. :cool:

He wasn’t after all in the business for fun and grins… :evil: :)
 
Stops

I'm gonna post pictures later on to show how much lower the contact point is on the hammer. it's more than a tenth inch...much lower. I even dug up an OEM stop from an older Colt Commander that has a 1/8th radius on it...so Colt was aware of the effect that it had. Why they didn't use it on the Deltas is a mystery. They went to 7/32nds across the board by the time the Series 80 pistols made their debut. I use a smaller radius than the original .078 inch (5/64ths) on 5-inch guns to get the full benefit. Officer's Models get a 1/10th radius, and I normally go with a 5/64ths on Commanders that I don't own and can't control what recoil spring that the owner may use. All my Commanders get the .060 radius and a 16-pound recoil spring.

Gotta wait for Kelie to wake up so she can run the camera. She did a 7P-7A shift in the ER last night, and if I wake her up early to make gun pix, ya'll are gonna hafta find another tuner...:D
 
FPS

Tuner did a FPS for in a Norinco Compact and the first trigger pull with ammo showed me a great deal of recoil feel difference.:D
Some people would not believe such a small change could have such an effect.
It doesn't matter if it really makes a difference or not----what matters is the fact that if you THINK it makes a difference---IT DOES!!!!!!:what:
 
Gotta wait for Kelie to wake up so she can run the camera. She did a 7P-7A shift in the ER last night, and if I wake her up early to make gun pix, ya'll are gonna hafta find another tuner...
Click to expand...

One mug of turbo-coffee should do the job... :evil:
 
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