Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Turbocoffee

Nah. She's built up an immunity to the stuff. She can drink a half-pot and go sleep like she had a clear conscience.

Ken...It ain't got nuttin' ta do with thinkin'. It's physics. Anything that CAN have an influence on the slide WILL have an influence.:cool:
 
Recoil operated firearms are a balancing act.
The closer things are to being in balance with each other the better they work.


In fact any machine must be in balance with itself (and it's "environment") in order to work to it's maximum efficiency.
 
Mind

Tuner,I know that the stop really makes a difference. The point I wanted to make was, If your mind tells you it is different,it is.
A case in point---I used to hate shooting a big-bore rifle(375 H&H,458 Win,458 Lott) They kicked the snot out of me.
While I was in Zaire and used a big-bore on game,the recoil didn't seem the same.
I know nothing changed and the recoil was the same,but my mind told me it was different. Seemed as almost no recoil at all.
 
Mindin' Recoil

Ken, mah fren...A man never remembers hearin' the report or feelin' the kick when the hammer falls for blood. It's funny, but even without ear plugs, when I'd drop a 10-point buck with a short-coupled .308, my ears didn't even ring.
 
Just to sum up some of the impressions. Some have said the change in FPS has had a major effect and some say they can hardly tell the difference. The poster who said it works if you believe is very close to the truth. Sounds like voodoo, but under varying conditions I'm sure our experience with recoil, given the same gun and ammunition has varied. I was interested in the poster who said he didn't feel much difference, but noticed a change in recoil with his daughter shooting. Less mass in the shooter resisting recoil and more absorbing? Limp wristing is known to take more out of the reserves a pistol needs to function.

What would JMB do? Colt initiated the change and it has worked well in the 88 years hence. Was JMB consulted? No proof either way, but certainly some rich historical speculation.

So where does the sensation of recoil come from in this pistol? Primarily from the slide hitting the frame at the end of it's travel at about 15 FPS. What slows the slide from it's initial speed? At the beginning of decelleration, which begins as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel, it is a combination of the recoil spring, hammer spring and friction.

It seems that springs have little effect fighting the initial pulse of 2240 LBS, but become more effective after unlock.

For those of you able to wade through the article on 1911 dynamics it was noted that the recoil spring absorbed about 26.1 inch pounds. The hamer spring was not calculated, but it absorbs about 17-20 inch pounds with the upper figure closer to the small radius slide stop. The remainder of the energy, less friction, is felt as recoil.
 
re:

Naw, Jungle. It ain't voodoo. It's physics!

For the record, it was never touted as a "recoil reducer." Its primary effect is to reduce slide to frame impact by causing the slide to lose momentum at the inception of movement...which it does... And...it will vary a little from gun to gun, depending on how slick the slide moves, ammo, recoil spring, etc.

Bottom line though, is....If you're not willing to try it and see for yourself what its effects are, then everything else is speculation and opinion based on
your own belief system.

Oh...And that Tiro guy is a real hoot! I could get to likin' his posts except that they get to be a little more involved than they need to be. One thing I did notice that he was wide of the mark on...He maintains that the hammer cocks smoothly and remains in contact with the slide...which it assuredly does not. I'm sure that there are other things, and I might go find a few if i could find the time to wade through all the rocket science stuff.

Cheers, ya'll!
 
Pictures!

Showing the radius on three different firing pin stops.

Centered is an EGW stop with the 1/16th radius that I like to use on 5-inch guns. On the right is a WW2 USGI stop that sports the standard 7/32nds radius. On the left is a stop that was OEM in an early Colt Commander. The radius is just a tick smaller 1/8th inch...I'd estimate it at about .120 or so.
During the same era...around 1968...the stops on the 5-inch Colts were the
now-standard 7/32nds...so Colt was obviously aware of the effect.
 

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Measurement

Jungle asked:

>>Interesting. Do you have a measurement of the difference in height fom the bottom of the FPS to the point it would intercept the hammer?<<
**************

Haven't taken an exact measurement, but the point of contact with the hammer would be the line where the flat begins at the top of the radius.
A machinist's scale would be your best bet.
 
Tuner, can the radius be changed on my Commander size gun ? You said something about you use the EGW on 5" guns.
 
Tuner:

I think ya' missed on that one. You do indeed have to start with a new EGW firing pin stop, but they can be fitted to any size 1911 platform pistol. You do have to determine if the pre-series 70/series 70 or series 80 is the correct stop to use depending on the pistol.

Remember, only the Old Fuff is perfect... :neener: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
No actually, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying you could only change the FPS on a 5" gun. Which to my unknowing eyes, made sense, since the slide is shorter on my Commander size gun.
 
I played with different combinations on a fat frame 5" 40 S&W competition gun, took a couple stops and cut them from just a broken edge to slightly less than a stock series 80 stop. With three stops and a factory STI stop, series 80 radius cut on it, I did some testing.

The gun FEELS great with the short radius stop in it, feels much more stable and cuts down the secondary pulse nasty hit by a lot. The shorter the radius the better the gun felt. The front sight stayed planted longer during firing, or at least it seemed like it did. I did not notice that cycling speed was reduced, and it did not seem like front sight dip at slide close changed much if any either. Win/win situation? Problem is that the original STI long radius stop gave me better hits in less time......

Is it just that I grooved the timing of this gun in recoil and recovery over a couple thousand rounds before this test, and that 1000 rounds after deciding the short radius stop was the way to go isn't enough to re-learn the timing? I don't think so, I can generally pick a gun up and get to work with it fairly quickly. The testing I did was fairly quick, couple hundred rounds. Then I put it into competition use, and shot a couple IPSC matches with it. All together I put about a thousand rounds through it with the short radius stop in it. The matches didn't go too well, so I decided to do a little head to head testing with the timer. I think it is that the harsh feel of the long radius stop is what it feels like when all the things the gun needs to do in ejection, feeding, and recoil recovery happen faster. It gets what it needs to do done faster, then I can get to what I need to do faster.

Thoughts? Comments?
 
HSMITH, Excellent and interesting test writeup. It makes it clear that altering the dynamics in one area will have consequences in another. All machines are a series of tradeoffs, with the trades made in one area to optimize another.

You didn't say what type of load you are using, but in general the .40 has a more rapid and higher peak pressure spike than the .45 ACP. I found your comments on the various stops very interesting due to using the same pistol and one with which you are quite familiar.

Any comment on reliability, ease of manual racking, or ejection pattern?
 
Timing

HSMITH wrote...many things.

Your complaint is fairly common. Several of the guys that have used the shortened radius report that they literally had to start from scratch and relearn the way to handle the gun. Almost all have reported that they
had trained themselves to pull the gun out of recoil for so long, that they actually pulled it too far, and slowed down...because they had to bring the gun back UP to reaquire the sights...until they reprogrammed the muscles and nerves to bring it back down to the sweet spot. After they managed that, they sped up. Best WAG is that, like flinching, ya gotta be aware that you're doin' it before you can take steps to cure it.

Try dropping the recoil spring a pound or two and see if that doesn't get ya back on your game.
 
Just one other thought. In reading post #190 Old Fuff quotes the excellent Clawson tome.
"This permitted easier cocking of the hammer by recoil of the slide." A comment on the 1918 change to the FPS.
This appears to be at odds with the general opinion that it was done to make manual racking easier. Was it done for reliability as the quote implies or actually to make it easier for those hardy troopers to hand cycle the pistol?

So which is it?
 
Clawson

It was done in response to the Cavalry personnel's complaints that the gun was too hard to hand-cycle with the hammer down. Clawson sometimes goofs, just like a few others have. One publication in particular, stated that the thumb safety was first, and the grip safety added at the behest of the Army Ordnance Department...which is backward. The first 6 prototypes of the 1911 as we would recognize it today...built in 1910...didn't have the thumb safety.

And no...Reliability doesn't come into play. Several of the guys who have tried it report better reliability with the smaller radius. Some of that comes from using a lighter recoil spring, some comes from smoother cycling.

Again...It's a cheap, quick swap. Why-don't-you-try-it-and-see-for-yourself? If you'll order one and have it sent to me, I'll cut the radius and pre-fit the width to maximum print specs and shoot it over to ya..:cool:
 
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