American Pioneer Powder is Back in Business & Available

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arcticap

arcticap

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APP is now producing powder again after their plant explosion.
The powder with the original APP label is available for purchase from the following; outfits: bulletsbyscarett.com, lg-outdoors.com and wholesalehunter.com.

It's also being sold under the Shooters World label @ grafs.com as Shooters World Multi-Purpose Black
(This Black Powder substitute is made in America for Shooters World by American Pioneer Powder).

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/83678

https://bulletsbyscarlett.com/shop/ols/products/app-american-pioneer-powder-black-powder-substitute

https://www.lg-outdoors.com/Search/Keyword?keywords=american pioneer powder

https://www.wholesalehunter.com/Search/Keyword?keywords=american pioneer
 
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James84 said:
I wonder how this stuff is, though I told my self I would never use a substitute again after trying goex black powder.
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The APP 3F is what I prefer to use for revolvers.
I use an OP card and heavy compression with a loading press, and it produces a lot of velocity and smoke.
Just make sure to always keep the bottle sealed as much as possible so that it won't absorb any moisture.
 
Thanks for the information.

All APP manufactured powders, JSG, Pinnacle, and Black MZ, like a tight fitting ball/sabot/conical seated hard on the powder. That's the reason many shooters couldn't' make the powder work.
 
I know for a fact that BlackMZ loves heavy compression. It worked phenomenally on my revolvers...and the more compression i added the better the powder performed. I can use 30 grains by volume in my .36 navies and fit a conical, so it compresses very very well. I remember when i first used it and placed 20 grains in the cylinder...placed a conical over it and i rammed it down and i was surprised at how much of a space there was between the nose of the bullet and the cylinder face...with black powder it was almost flush. So i managed to next time put 25-30 grains without problem. Great stuff...i miss blackmz
 
Howdy

I prefer to use real Black Powder.

But I do have most of a pound of APP left from loading some 38 S&W a bunch of years ago for one of my antique S&W Top Break pocket pistols.

The only suitable bullets I could find for 38 S&W were some .359 diameter 100 grain bullets, lubed with Smokeless bullet lube. I was too lazy to melt the lube out and pan lube them for real Black Powder, so I bought a pound of APP. No idea where I bought it, it was a while ago, but probably local because subs were always easier to find than real Black Powder.

pmKtnrIVj.jpg




My reloading notebook says I put .7CC (approx 7.3 grains) into the 38 S&W cases before seating the 100 grain bullet. The APP website says not to compress the powder by more than 1/16", so that is probably what I did. I have not fired any of those rounds in a long time, so I don't remember how badly they fouled, but I seem to remember it was not very bad at all and clean up was easy. My reloading notebook says I did this on 10/8/2011.
 
I played with Black M-Z for a while in 45 Colt cartridges. I had very inconsistent velocities (as much as 100 fps spread for 5 shots) and I was compressing it a fair amount, trying to get BP performance equivalents. I was always told the Black M-Z was the same as APP so I'm not to enthused about trying it. That aside, it's quite popular with some CAS shooters I hear from.

Dave
 
Playing the devil’s advocate I don’t know what the advantage is using subs over black. Availability I get as many local gun shops can’t or won’t adhere to ATF storage and retailing policies for black but If one had a choice Why choose the sub. Admittedly my only experience is with Pyrodex, there’s a half bottle sitting in the powder drawer that’s been there 20 years or so now. Since Ive discovered the convenience of bulk orders from Graf and their house brand I’ve never looked back.
 
whughett said:
Playing the devil’s advocate I don’t know what the advantage is using subs over black. Availability I get as many local gun shops can’t or won’t adhere to ATF storage and retailing policies for black but If one had a choice Why choose the sub. Admittedly my only experience is with Pyrodex, there’s a half bottle sitting in the powder drawer that’s been there 20 years or so now. Since Ive discovered the convenience of bulk orders from Graf and their house brand I’ve never looked back.
Click to expand...

I figure it sort of makes sense, for the casual shooter, in those places where you can buy a bottle of sub but not of Holy. For us nuts, though, I'm with you. Buying online in 25 pound lots does hurt the pocketbook, but the peace of mind is priceless!
 
whughett said:
Playing the devil’s advocate I don’t know what the advantage is using subs over black.
Click to expand...

The characteristics of APP fouling is unique and different from the rest.
At least some would rate it as cleaner burning.
And a lubed wad may not be needed with it as much to prevent fouling.
If it were possible to shoot a revolver without needing to pack it with grease or to strip it as often, then that would be considered to be an advantage.
If powders produce a relatively fixed percentage of carbon & creosote among other things as by-products, and APP weighs 22% less per equal volume of Goex, then based on weight and formula it produces less fouling.
And the fouling it does produce is less objectionable to some.
And I'm not talking about other sub.'s, but about APP which is the focus.
Sub.'s are not all the same just like black powders are not all the same.
Each powder has different characteristics, some advantages and disadvantages.
 
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Anyone with experience with APP: does it stink/choke you like pyrodex? I hate that stuff. If it performed similarly to real black and didn't smell like burning cat vomit, I'd consider using a sub. I don't want to buy a bunch without some more info though.
 
.38 Special said:
I figure it sort of makes sense, for the casual shooter, in those places where you can buy a bottle of sub but not of Holy. For us nuts, though, I'm with you. Buying online in 25 pound lots does hurt the pocketbook, but the peace of mind is priceless!
Click to expand...

I probably don’t qualify as a casual shooter, although all of my shooting is casual, a hundred or so rounds a week punching paper. If the subs were cheaper I’d most likely go that way. As I can control the price, say $17 a pound for Grafs own brand if I order enough. Guess it comes down to spend it all at once or in drips and drabs. The guns are cleaned regardless so fouling is not really a concern.
 
1KPerDay said:
Anyone with experience with APP: does it stink/choke you like pyrodex? I hate that stuff. If it performed similarly to real black and didn't smell like burning cat vomit, I'd consider using a sub. I don't want to buy a bunch without some more info though.
Click to expand...

Yes, the generous amount of smoke it makes can be an irritant, especially if it lingers.
Maybe not quite as harsh as Pyrodex, but that may depend on how much is breathed in.
 
I've used pyrodex select, pyrodex 30gr pellets, triple seven 50 gr pellets, loose triple 777 3f, white hots and regular 3f goex bp. I've gotta say that goex is the easiest to clean up and doesn't produce super hard fouling like triple 777. Pyrodex on the other hand seems to leave a brown residue behind that takes a lot of effort to get off. Pyrodex also produces what seems like a really toxic smoke.

I will say though that the pyrodex pellets are convenient as heck and had a 100 percent ignition rate for the 150 pellets i used. These pellets were used up in two sessions where it was extremely humid. Midway usa carries goex and old einseford and it's cheaper than the substitues.

Midway only charges like ten or fifteen dollars for the hazmat fee. Even if you order say five pounds, it's still the same price for the hazmat fee.
 
I’ve been using APP (3F when available, 2F in a pinch) in .38 Special and 12 gauge for several years now in cowboy action matches. When I heard that Sportsmans Warehouse was closing out Black MZ for under $10/lb I picked up several containers. It is coarser than APP 3F so I use MZ for shotgun.

The advantage to me, other than price and availability, is the ability to use coated bullets or uncoated cast bullets with hard lube.

It seems a little hotter than an equal charge of black powder and while it produces plenty of smoke, the smoke is silver gray and not the creamy cloud that Goex produces. Also no flame like black powder. I don’t really notice the smell.
 
1KPerDay said:
Anyone with experience with APP: does it stink/choke you like pyrodex? I hate that stuff. If it performed similarly to real black and didn't smell like burning cat vomit, I'd consider using a sub. I don't want to buy a bunch without some more info though.
Click to expand...

Don't remember, it was several years ago, and I did not shoot up all that much in my 38S&W cartridges.

I will say though, if it smelled as bad as you say Pyrodex smeels, I probably would have remembered it.
 
whughett said:
Playing the devil’s advocate I don’t know what the advantage is using subs over black. Availability I get as many local gun shops can’t or won’t adhere to ATF storage and retailing policies for black but If one had a choice Why choose the sub.
Click to expand...

That is a very big reason. From my own personal experience the only place I could buy real Black Powder used to be about 45 minutes away. I would run up there and buy three pounds or so whenever I needed it, and I did not mind because it was a good shop and I always enjoyed visiting. Bought plenty of guns there over the years. Then one day they screwed up their paperwork, and the ATF said they were going to have rebuild their powder magazine further away from the road. They said no thanks, and stopped selling real Black Powder. So then I was stuck with no place local to buy real Black Powder. A friend and I decided to buy together in bulk from Maine Powderhouse, and we have been doing so ever since for a few years now, but not everybody can do that. Not a casual user, all I shoot in CAS is BP, and together we go through 25 pounds every year or two.

So I never look down my nose up at guys who have no way to buy real BP and use subs instead.
 
This is where it pays to compete in the North-South Skirmish Association, or the National Muzzle-Loading Rifle Association. They both have connections for bulk buys.
 
Driftwood Johnson said:
That is a very big reason. From my own personal experience the only place I could buy real Black Powder used to be about 45 minutes away. I would run up there and buy three pounds or so whenever I needed it, and I did not mind because it was a good shop and I always enjoyed visiting. Bought plenty of guns there over the years. Then one day they screwed up their paperwork, and the ATF said they were going to have rebuild their powder magazine further away from the road. They said no thanks, and stopped selling real Black Powder. So then I was stuck with no place local to buy real Black Powder. A friend and I decided to buy together in bulk from Maine Powderhouse, and we have been doing so ever since for a few years now, but not everybody can do that. Not a casual user, all I shoot in CAS is BP, and together we go through 25 pounds every year or two.

So I never look down my nose up at guys who have no way to buy real BP and use subs instead.
Click to expand...
Agreed. For years (decades), real BP was a non-reality here in the midwest. I was reluctant to pay shipping and hazmat fees to factor in with the per pound cost of BP when I could get Pyrodex locally for $16.00 a pound with no haz or shipping. Then the locals quit carrying Pyrodex and subs as well. Grafs is a great alternative, reasonable fees and you don't have to buy 25# at a crack.
 
I have two pounds of Kik FFG and a 1/2 pound of Pyrodex P to use up after that I would like to try APP if I can find it locally. Here in Ca, you can only have one pound of black powder, right now I have one pound of powder stored at a friends house. Before I got sick I could buy black powder at small country gun shops up in the foothills I may go for a ride and see if they are still selling it.
 
I loved Black MZ in my 12 gauge cap lock.
Cram the bejeezus outta it down and get decent coverage at the 15yd pattern board.
 
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