AMT AutoMag III: An ideal military sidearm?

[Braith-Wafer]

The AutoMag 3, A stainless steel handgun that takes 8 shots of .30 carbine rounds. The .30 carbine round is said to be more powerful than a .357 magnum, and is quite narrow which could be ideal for a double column pistol magazine, Also the fact the ammo can be shared with the M1 carbine it was designed for, This pistol would be a favourite for Israeli security forces who are popular M1 carbine users.

So, could a .30 carbine pistol be the ideal 9mm parabellum replacement?, Has anyone out there came to fire this thing?.

 

[Zak Smith]

Very large, very heavy, low capacity, excessive recoil. I'd wager excessive parts breakage and poor reliability.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg178-e.htm

It must be noted that original AMT / IAI pistols were not known for great reliability or durability; most models were "hit or miss" propositions, with some specimens being rather well made and providing good service, and some others being among the worst jam-o-matics available for the money.
The Automag pistols were never really intended for any serious defensive of security use; they key niches were plinking and hunting.

No conclusion is: "No."

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I have had the "pleasure" of using a .30 Carbine in combat. I will not carry a handgun chambered that cartridge!

 

[kymarkh]

Shooting buddy has had one for over 10 years now and it is a hoot. It's one of those pistols that you can't help but smile after you get thru the first magazine with it. Everyone at an indoor range will stop what they are doing to watch you shoot the thing. That's part of the reason why it would be horrible as a combat pistol - it produces a fireball that would announce your presence to anyone within a grid square. The report is closer to a .44 magnum than a 9mm - a deep BOOM! Accuracy at 15 to 25 yards was pretty darn good and it came with decent sights, but they are not easy to shoot quickly due to the flash and recoil. It didn't do very well knocking over bowling pins either, so while it may look much better on paper I don't think it is really much better than the 9mm in the power department.

 

[Hauptmann]

So, you want a pistol that pokes .30" holes in somebody without even making a tumble, with a large muzzle flash, heavy recoil, and low capacity? How about a .355" hole that tumbles, with low muzzle flash, low recoil, and high capacity......oh wait, we are already using that with the M9.

 

[Braith-Wafer]

Or would the .30 carbine round be better off in a proven reliable design like the frame of the M1911/Browning M1903/HiPower/Tokarev?

I heard rumours about the M1 carbine wouldnt penetrate enemy uniforms in the Korean war during harsh cold conditions.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The .30 carbine round would be better off relegated to plinking and not foisted off on someone whose life depends on his weapon.

 

[Hauptmann]

Braith-Wafer,

The .30 Carbine works well if you use either soft point, or hollow point ammunition. The Firearms Institute tested these loads and found them to be pretty equal in effectiveness to the .357magnum when fired out of a M1 Carbine. However, this type of ammunition is not legal under the Hague Convension Accords. Therefore, the US military would be forced to use standard FMJ ammunition which does NOT perform well as history has shown. They key to a cartridge's effectivenss is not how fast it travels, but how much physical destruction it generates when it encounters tissue. Here's a good reading on the basics of ammunition effectiveness:

http://www.gunthorp.com/wounding_factors.htm

If you are using a good soft point or hollow point bullet, I would use a M1 Carbine out to 50-100 yards for defensive use. However, the .30 carbine bullet design is not very aerodynamic and loses a lot of velocity at longer ranges making it less practical beyond 100 yards.

 

[Novus Collectus]

The .30 Carbine works well if you use either soft point, or hollow point ammunition. The Firearms Institute tested these loads and found them to be pretty equal in effectiveness to the .357magnum when fired out of a M1 Carbine. However, this type of ammunition is not legal under the Hague Convension Accords. Therefore, the US military would be forced to use standard FMJ ammunition which does NOT perform well as history has shown. They key to a cartridge's effectivenss is not how fast it travels, but how much physical destruction it generates when it encounters tissue. Here's a good reading on the basics of ammunition effectiveness:

The United States is not a signatory of that article of the 1899 Hague convention and is not restricted from using hollow point bullets in combat.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The United States is not a signatory of that article of the 1899 Hague convention and is not restricted from using hollow point bullets in combat.

Signatory or not, we consider ourselves bound by the Convention and our issue ammunition reflects that.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Signatory or not, we consider ourselves bound by the Convention and our issue ammunition reflects that.

General practice or not, we are not bound by law nor treaty from using hollow point ammo in combat.

"The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. ... Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United States Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. (The Sierra #2200 BTHP) not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat." Department of State, Army General Counsel
http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html
According to this sight, hollow point handgun ammo is issued to Special Operations Command for the MK 23.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The fact that JAG had to jump through hoops to explain the use of M118LR and Mk 262 OTM rounds demonstrates that we consider ourselves bound by the Convention. You'll notice the JAG justification letter you quote from makes it clear that OTM (which is not a true JHP anyway) is employed specifically and solely for the improved accuracy it provides sniper weapons and most certainly is not employed to increase suffering etc etc etc.

It is probably worth nothing, in the same vein, that some self-starter JAG officer in 4th ID(M), who was unaware of the justification letter, unilaterally banned the use of OTM ammo in Iraq for a few months because she deemed it non-Hague compliant. She was eventually overruled by higher authorities in the military legal community who brought the existing policy letter to her attention, but the argument used on either side was never "we're not subject to it anyway" but rather, specifically, that it did not violate the Convention in the first place.

According to this sight, hollow point handgun ammo is issued to Special Operations Command for the MK 23.

That must be why no one has ever seen them. The Mark 23 is mostly used to take up space on arms room racks, not combat use.

JAG allows certain units to use JHP ammo for very specific mission sets, including both JSOC and military police units (the latter only when conducting peacetime law enforcement but in warzones, the limits on the former are probably not appropriate to discuss online -- though I don't claim to know all the ins and outs anyway). But the use of JHP ammunition is thoroughly evaluated by JAG to ensure it complies with the Hague Convention

 

[rcmodel]

The old wives tail of the .30 Carbine not being able to penetrate Chi-com winter uniforms is just that, an old wives tail.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8_3.htm

As for a military pistol, forgetaboutit!

Loud doesn't even begin to describe it out of a Ruger .30 Blackhawk. The .30 Automag is better, but it still really hurts without hearing protection.

Teaching the average solder to shoot one well enough to hit anything would be out of the question.
And the hearing loss claims would drive the government crazy!


rcmodel

 

[Zak Smith]

Everything else aside, considerthat 45ACP has an OAL of about 1.23 - 1.24", and this causes many people to complain about grip girth. At an OAL of 1.68" the .30 carbine is a non-starter.

 

[RecoilRob]

The 'old wives tale' about the Carbine might have a shred of truth to it when you consider that some of the ammo being used was circa WWII and was found to be poor performing @ -20F. Saw chrono testing at less than 1000fps when frozen.

Don't remember where I saw this, but it makes sense that frozen ammo just might not have had the oommmpphh of warm factory fresh.

And, the fellows complaining might just have had a reasonable complaint!

 

[Novus Collectus]

HoreseSoldier,
There is no doubt we are bound by the 1907 Hague convention, but we are not signatories to the 1899 convention. It is the 1899 convention which bans hollow points.
What is unclear is if use of certain hollow points violate the 1907 language "To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;" which is not the same as a ban on hollow points.

So like I said, there is nothing we signed that makes the US bound by law to disallow using hollow points specifically. If it can be shown the hollow points are not calculated to cause unnecessary suffering, then there is no treaty keeping us from doing so.

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

I'd rather have a .45 ACP or 9mm.

 

[Crunker1337]

I think the AMT Javelina would be better if they made a doublestack version.

 

[YardVarmint]

Anyone ever compare it to the 7.62x25mm Tokarev with equal weight bullets out of equal length pistol barrels?

Just curious. I'm guessing that they'd be mighty close but with an edge to the .30Carbine.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I've seen a man hit repeatedly by carbines and keep functioning. A single hit from a .357 (with hollowbased wadcutters loaded backward) put him down.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The .30 carbine round is said to be more powerful than a .357 magnum,

I owned a 30carbine blackhawk for awhile. According to my chronograph with factory and handloaded ammo the 30 carbine round would fall in between 32 H&R and 7.62x25tok. I was rather surprised at how poor a performer the 30 carbine handgun actually is, 357 magnum is hands down a much better performer be it in a handgun or carbine.