an active "road rager" - how to deal with?
- Thread starter tuj
- Start date
- Status
smalls
Member
I understand what you're saying, but I think you nay be missing my point. He's planning on going to his house. He should drive right by his house and go to a station he knows. His neighborhood station. He should know where at least the one closest to his home is.
627PCFan
Member
Was boxed in 2 years ago in rush hour traffic with a road rager who looked like a painter and I assumed huffer. I was approached from the rear and chose to exit my truck holster with 627 iwb visible. That was very muchenough to send him packing to his minivan. Keep in mind oc in VA is legal. Long story other motorists had called it in and he was pulled over by there state police later down the road. I exited because I was not going to be trapped in the truck should things have gone south. exiting gives you options for retreat if possible and your aren't trapped in a vehicle.
Russ Jackson
member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 564
+1000
That was a good decision. Not only is open carry legal in Virginia, one does have a legal duty to retreat unless one is inside one's domicile.
Were I live, deadly force is justifiable under circumstances in which someone attempts to unlawfully enter one's occupied automobile, and there is no duty to retreat from an occupied vehicle or domicile.
Personally , I would not consider a defender who is armed with a firearm and who knows how to use it to be "trapped" while inside a vehicle.
One does not want to shoot anyone unless there is no alternative, and it is of course undesirable to fire any handgun in a closed space, but the problem with exiting the car is that the defender loses any legal presumption that deadly force was necessary, making his defense of justification more tenuous; and in many jurisdictions, including mine, one then does have a duty to retreat if retreat is safely possible.
Of course, anyone who knows much about the criminal justice system would rather run than draw, if one could run.
But I cannot run, and neither can my wife, and I would not want to deprive myself of the presumption offered by our "castle doctrine" and have to let others decide about our physical conditions should the state conclude otherwise.
Agreed. Why leave a defensible position? In the case I mentioned in post #2, the idea of exiting the vehicle never occurred to me. It's a means of escape, it can be a large defensive weapon, and it provides some defense from an impact weapon since there are less options for effective strikes on the part of the attacker.
627PCFan
Member
To me sitting in the vehicle is a legally defensible position, but not near as advantageous as exiting the vehicle and being able to hopefully relocate to a more advantageous position. Retreating behind a concrete mediam barrier, or hiding behind a full car would be preferencial to hiding behind a car door(3peices of sheet metal) at near point blank range. Thoughts to consider about defense in a vehicle.
Can you shoot sideways while sitting down? Extending your arm with your gun towards could be easily snatched.
Assuming you do discharge the gun can you get hits on the target without shooting through the car door?
If you do have to shoot through the car door will your bullets make it to the perp?
Not to mention your a sitting target for the perp.
Legally Defensive is not always tactically optimal.
Can you shoot sideways while sitting down? Extending your arm with your gun towards could be easily snatched.
Assuming you do discharge the gun can you get hits on the target without shooting through the car door?
If you do have to shoot through the car door will your bullets make it to the perp?
Not to mention your a sitting target for the perp.
Legally Defensive is not always tactically optimal.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
And you are missing the point in part. A lot of people don't have a clue where the police station is "near" where they live. Keep in mind that "near" where they live may be miles away in an area they don't transit. Plus, just because one is on the way home does not mean one is anywhere near home. Getting to that police station "near" home may be a long way off.
Russ Jackson
member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 564
You can stay in the car. I still think getting out is the best option if possible. Especially if he has a wrench and I have a gun. As well as a safe exit. I have never shot a gun in a car but i am betting you are basically deaf after the first one. Are you going to brandish it to let the psycyo with the wrench see it first? If so might he go back to his vehicle for his? Maybe he is already carrying and now you have become a sitting duck.
In some jurisdictions yes, but in others, not so if retreat is safely possible.
Retreat is always preferable, if safely possible.
Of course.
Why would I do that?
Yes.
If he approaches with a bludgeon, the car offers protection by greatly limiting his range of motion.
If you are outside and well within Tueller distance, you are very vulnerable indeed. Do not overestimate the effectiveness of your handgun in stopping an attacker instantly.
If he has a firearm, retreat would not be possible.
dirtykid
Member
An old trick I used when we was kids , and me and my friends would play cat-n-mouse trying to ditch the other, was to approach a stale-green light slowly, then actually STOP at the green, waiting for it to turn red, then punch-it thru the intersection before any cross-traffic starts to move (theres always a delay between lights changing)
You may get a few beeps from cross-way traffic,cause they know you ran a red, but in another situation where a carload of punks were following me and my girlfriend around, It left them sitting at the intersection,with no-way to pursue us further,,
You may get a few beeps from cross-way traffic,cause they know you ran a red, but in another situation where a carload of punks were following me and my girlfriend around, It left them sitting at the intersection,with no-way to pursue us further,,
One more time: if you can get out of Dodge, by all means do so.
But don't even think about getting out to confront him.
It would be rough.
He will probably "see it first". What he does is up to him.
That is completely irrelevant.
Eh?
Again, if you can run, do it.
I suggest availing yourself of some defensive training and instruction in use of force law. Consult the ST&T sticky library.
Shot placement is key. If it takes shooting through the car door to hit the areas that will stop the attack, then that's what it takes.
With the modern vehicle I drive, yes. While they may be slowed, it's certainly better than nothing. And again, if I remain in the vehicle and the attacker has an impact weapon, I'm able to defend myself much more effectively than he is able to attack; the car won't stop my bullets, but it will stop his bludgeon from multiple angles.
I did. And I would again.
I agree on a safe exit if available for the new hypothetical scenario you've introduced. But the OP, and my response with the situation I went through assumed that we were boxed in.
Having been there, this wasn't even on my mind. Had I run out of options and been forced to defend myself and my friend who was in the car with me, I doubt I would regret being alive due to diminished hearing capability.
I did not go out of my way to display the weapon when it happened to me. It's possible he saw it incidental to my being prepared for an imminent attack with great risk of bodily injury or death.
In my case, he (thankfully) didn't. If he had taken the time to do that, by then the light would have turned green and we would have had more options to maneuver in the car we stayed in. I can only talk what I've experienced, but if you want to "what if" it this could easily spin out of control.
As a native Houstonian I witness road rage quite a bit and several times directed towards me.
I do my level best not to respond to it.
However, very personally if I were to be blocked into traffic in my compact little gas mileage champ of a car,that is already tight for movement, and the guy got out and approached me with a weapon,and that was a weapon,and then started damaging my vehicle,at that point I would definitely start fearing for my safety.
I would have had my hand on my concealed pistol but would not have pulled it.
If on the other hand he broke one of my windows then at that point I would be considering a completely different response.
Luckily none of that did happen to you and you were able to leave the area car damage and all.
People!!
I do my level best not to respond to it.
However, very personally if I were to be blocked into traffic in my compact little gas mileage champ of a car,that is already tight for movement, and the guy got out and approached me with a weapon,and that was a weapon,and then started damaging my vehicle,at that point I would definitely start fearing for my safety.
I would have had my hand on my concealed pistol but would not have pulled it.
If on the other hand he broke one of my windows then at that point I would be considering a completely different response.
Luckily none of that did happen to you and you were able to leave the area car damage and all.
People!!
Sergei Mosin
Member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2011
- Messages
- 1,918
Any thoughts on how the equation changes if you're driving a convertible with the top down - as I usually am during the summer months?
At first blush, that would seem to materially (1) substantiate the occupant's reason for belief that the man swinging the heavy instrument had, at the outset of his tirade, placed him in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and (2) increase the likelihood that investigators and should it come to that, the triers of fact, would conclude the same thing.
In the OP's account, the man was swinging the tool at the trunk and at the top of an enclosed automobile and demanding that the occupant get out and fight--which would, of course, have seriously weakened, if not effectively eliminated, the occupant's chances for a successful defense of justification, had the attacker subsequently been injured.
In the scenario of a man running towards the driver of an open car with a lethal weapon, it would seem difficult for the state or a plaintiff to successfully argue that ability, opportunity, and jeopardy did not exist.
At that point, the remaining questions would seem to involve immediate necessity and any duty to retreat if retreat were safely possible.
WardenWolf
member
I had some crazy road rager get out of his car at a stoplight and yell at my passenger window after following me and acting aggressively for a while. I had a passenger in there at the time. What he did NOT know was that I had my Polish P-64 on my hip and a Ruger P90 .45 in the driver side door pouch. Had he tried to smash that window, it would have been the last mistake he would have ever made. By Arizona law I only have to feel my life or safety are threatened, and can also respond to a threat against someone else as if it were myself. He had no idea the can of worms he was getting into. After the light changed I called police, and he soon realized I was on the phone and guessed correctly who I might be calling and bugged out.
Spike_akers
Member
i had a similar situation about a year ago.. unfortunately i dont feel i hadled it as well as you did... i had been followed for miles, i chose a different route home and was headed towards a police station, and as soon as i felt the car was becomming a threat (weaving behind me, endangering the drivers in either lane beside me, bumping my truck with his) i dialed 911, unfortunately traffic was heavy and i couldnt get into another lane (i was in the middle) and at a stop light i became trapped. when we stopped he got out and had a aluminum baseball bat, hit the tailgate (still have the hole there) and came to the drivers window, started yelling, i could see a trooper in the far lane of opposing traffic, but i felt he couldnt get there fast enough, so when he rose the bat to swing, he got a swift hit with my door, at this point he ran.. dont know if he ever got caught... but i had a very long talk with the LEO about why i hit him even though i saw the officer.. and to other posters, being in a 89 3/4ton suburban, i had very little room to move the vehicle... moving to avoid the attacker is not always possible...
Last edited:
You need to be on the cell phone immediately before you come to a stop. That establishes who is the aggressor and who is the victim. If you have a passenger, let them make the call.
If it is legal to carry, you should ALWAYS carry. That is what our CCW instructor taught us.
If you do get out of the car, back up around the car so that witnesses can clearly see who is the aggressor. If there is a weapon, shout loudly STOP, I will shoot. Stand back!! We were taught to do this while backing up and putting distance between us and the aggressor.
If possible avoid being boxed in. One way to do this is to make a series of right turns going around a block which is one recommendation I have read in the past. That establishes that the person truly is following and secondly helps secure the area of a potential confrontation better than simply driving aimlessly. In such a manner, you may be able to slow down the pursuit so that you don't become a danger to those around you. This also demonstrates once again who is the aggressor and who is confronting and provoking a confrontation. You may also secure more eye witnesses establishing that they were following you as well.
The best bet is to avoid any eye contact in the first place and don't respond if possible to diffuse the situation before it gets out of control.
If you life is in immediate jeopardy such as the guy ramming your car, you may have to pull over in a tactical manner giving you the advantage, pull the weapon and protect yourself if all of the elements of self defense are at hand. If it ever happens, I hope I am in my Tundra instead of my Avalon.
Tactically, if I am rammed from behind and come to a stop, a tactical option is to demolition derby the car behind you, but that becomes dicey and you could be deemed the aggressor which would nullify your ability to brandish and use your weapon should the situation change. I would prefer to render the other car unable to drive to allow an escape IF they have already made contact with my car/truck, but the danger of that is they can now accuse you of initiating the attack. Tactically, that may be the best if vehicle contact has already been made. Legally, probably not a good idea at all.
Just some things that came to mind when considering this issue.
If it is legal to carry, you should ALWAYS carry. That is what our CCW instructor taught us.
If you do get out of the car, back up around the car so that witnesses can clearly see who is the aggressor. If there is a weapon, shout loudly STOP, I will shoot. Stand back!! We were taught to do this while backing up and putting distance between us and the aggressor.
If possible avoid being boxed in. One way to do this is to make a series of right turns going around a block which is one recommendation I have read in the past. That establishes that the person truly is following and secondly helps secure the area of a potential confrontation better than simply driving aimlessly. In such a manner, you may be able to slow down the pursuit so that you don't become a danger to those around you. This also demonstrates once again who is the aggressor and who is confronting and provoking a confrontation. You may also secure more eye witnesses establishing that they were following you as well.
The best bet is to avoid any eye contact in the first place and don't respond if possible to diffuse the situation before it gets out of control.
If you life is in immediate jeopardy such as the guy ramming your car, you may have to pull over in a tactical manner giving you the advantage, pull the weapon and protect yourself if all of the elements of self defense are at hand. If it ever happens, I hope I am in my Tundra instead of my Avalon.
Tactically, if I am rammed from behind and come to a stop, a tactical option is to demolition derby the car behind you, but that becomes dicey and you could be deemed the aggressor which would nullify your ability to brandish and use your weapon should the situation change. I would prefer to render the other car unable to drive to allow an escape IF they have already made contact with my car/truck, but the danger of that is they can now accuse you of initiating the attack. Tactically, that may be the best if vehicle contact has already been made. Legally, probably not a good idea at all.
Just some things that came to mind when considering this issue.
xxjumbojimboxx
Member
When I was younger living in MA I would have said get out and have a good ol fist fight. May the better man win... Massachusetts is literally full of road rage, lots of hot headed irish/italian folks (I'm from the same lineage). Ive gotten out of cars when others have gotten out of theirs... On a few occasions in fact. Funny though.. When your 300 lbs most poeple get right back in their car... HAh. The difference between now and then is that I've become a firearms enthusiast. Gun ownership has actually made me MORE responcible in that right, because I dont want an assault charge or to accidently beat someone to death and never be able to posess a gun again... Funny how that works huh?
Good advice.
Excellent advice.
Excellent advice.
Yes, but only do that if it is abundantly clear that the attacker intends to come after you with a deadly weapon.
Forget the car. Yeah, I know about Texas and the law on moveable, tangible, property, but there is no business case for rolling the dice with everything at stake in the criminal justice system, and not everyone will have this happen in Texas.
Also be aware of any duty to retreat once you have left the confines of your automobile.
zmoore1991
Member
If someone were ramming my vehicle in a road rage incident, I'm guessing that they are following so close that they would not have time to react if I were to slam on my brakes.... I know that in Texas, if you rear-end someone, you are pretty much always at fault from a failure to maintain safe driving distance or something of that nature, and I'm guessing that an airbag in the face might discombobulate someone enough that they might forget their anger, or be so preoccupied with a broken nose they won't want to fight you anymore... Could at least be a start to avoiding having to take a life?
This is getting going a little afield, but let me suggest that causing someone to rear end you would escalate the situation and make the person even more angry.
It would most probably also disable your car by disconnecting the power to the fuel pump.
There are better ways to avoid having to take a life. Avoidance, deescalation, evasion, escape....
Oh well, I was just thinking out loud. You know how dangerous that can be. I guess I have seen too many Mad Max movies lately.
It surprises me how many of you state you wouldn't draw your weapon until absolutely necessary, or to that effect. Myself, as soon as I realize there's a threat or even a possibility, my 1911 gets laid in my lap. It's not staying in the holster, or in the door, or the glovebox, or console.....it's right in my lap under my right hand, on top of my thigh. Cocked and locked.
It's not there so I can flash it, or brandish it, or threaten with it, or even let the threat know it exists.....it's there so I can react with it as fast as humanly possible. If the threat dissipates and the pistol never has to move, that's great. But if the threat escalates, the pistol can come into play in the blink of an eye and the flick of the thumb safety. Nothing says GO AWAY like the bore of a .45 staring at you.
If someone starts smashing your window with a tire iron, that's NOT the time to start fishing your pistol out to defend yourself. Have it ready.
Of course, I live in Colorado, and any citizen that can legally own a handgun can legally carry it anywhere in their car, fully loaded and ready to defend themselves with, permit not needed.
It's not there so I can flash it, or brandish it, or threaten with it, or even let the threat know it exists.....it's there so I can react with it as fast as humanly possible. If the threat dissipates and the pistol never has to move, that's great. But if the threat escalates, the pistol can come into play in the blink of an eye and the flick of the thumb safety. Nothing says GO AWAY like the bore of a .45 staring at you.
If someone starts smashing your window with a tire iron, that's NOT the time to start fishing your pistol out to defend yourself. Have it ready.
Of course, I live in Colorado, and any citizen that can legally own a handgun can legally carry it anywhere in their car, fully loaded and ready to defend themselves with, permit not needed.
- Status
