Another Caliber question

[wolfe28]

On a recent thread, someone said that it is possible to load 357 Magnum up to a point close to 30-30 levels (I'm using this as an example). Is there a measure or calculation that shows how and increase in diameter might make up (for lack of a better term) for a slower velocity?

Example, assuming similar firearms and ranges around 100 yards: a 160 grain 30-30 round with a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps is equivalent to a 158 grain 357 Mag. traveling at X velocity? I would figure that the 357 velocity would be lower, but, could still be equal to the 30-30 because the 357 punches a bigger hole.

Thoughts?

D

 

[Grumulkin]

There is the:

1. Taylor knock-out value.
2. Hatcher's relative stopping power value.
3. The shock power index.

Finally, consider momentum. It's momentum that ensures good penetration; a bullet can have high velocity and kinetic energy and not that good momentum if it's a light bullet.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

According to one report, Major Douglas Wesson in 1935 killed the following game with the a .357 handgun:

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots), first shot at 125y, second finishing shot at 200 yards

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

And he used the following load:
a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy.


This might be a good guideline for you to start.

LD

 

[Water-Man]

Check out Buffalo Bore ammo web site.

 

[MCgunner]

BB had some wild claims. They do what they do, but I can't reproduce their ballistics safely with MY handloading. I'm quite happy, though, on deer and hogs with a 158 grain SWC at 1900 fps. You can only kill an animal so dead and inside 100 yards, this load from my carbine is quite deadly. The .30-30 is a better hunting round, especially if ranges exceed the magic 100 yards. Then, again, the .308, the .300 win mag............. Just consider the .357 as a 100 yards deer rifle that is very versatile in that it will handle light .38 loads and small game as well as any .22, yet will drop a 250 lb hog with a BB 180. And, the ammo will fit in your Blackhawk. That in itself is kinda cool.

I don't put any faith in knock out values, power factors, and other such invented arithmetical crap. I just shoot what works. If it works, I'm for it.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Is there a measure or calculation that shows how and increase in diameter might make up (for lack of a better term) for a slower velocity?

No, not really -it's not an exact science (other than a straight momentum calculation which is simple mass times velocity). Bout the closest you can get to estimating "killing power" from a given round is to do ballistics gelatin comparison tests between loads, with the specific ballistic gelatin recipe used to prepare it closely approximating the game in question that you will be attempting to take.

 

[Water-Man]

MCgunner...Have you looked into Double Tap ammo?

 

[rcmodel]

Play with this:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

But to answer your question, No, it isn't possible.

Handloads:
Marlin 336 carbine.
30-30 150 grain @ 2,400 FPS.
30-30 170 grain @ 2,200 FPS.

Marlin 1894 carbine.
.357 146 grain @ 1,850 FPS
.357 158 grain @ 1,800 FPS.
.357 170 grain @ 1,500 FPS.

Many consider the .44 Mag carbine the equal of, or slightly better then the 30-30 for close range deer & hog hunting.
But not the .357 Mag.

rcmodel

 

[wolfe28]

Thanks for all the feedback. Obviously, nothing replaces real world experience, but having some "scientific" method to compare different rounds is helpful.
Part of my reason for asking is that I now live in a state that allows deer hunting with a rifle, provided it is a pistol caliber. So some kind of comparison is helpful.
Thanks again,
D

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You added something extra. The use of the handgun cartridge in a rifle may or may not, depending on the load, give you better ballistics. My bet is that with a factory load, the MV would be less as they are intended for a much shorter barreled firearm, but then again most of those loads are tested in revolvers, and perhaps you should look at data for a Thompson Center Contender handgun, or other single shot, as they don't bleed gas since there isn't a cylinder gap, so produce better results. Handloads could further increase the performance as handloading data for single shot handguns, or for pistol cartridges in rifles, sometimes are loaded to higher pressures as those actions are stronger (on average) than revolvers.

I agree with previous posts that you really can't come very close to .30-30, but you could find a good deer cartridge out to 100 yards. Van Dyke in his book The Still Hunter highly touts his Winchester '73 in .44-40, which (imho) as a black powder cartridge is an underpowered round for deer. It apparently did well prior to 1900 (when he wrote his book), but cartridge choices were limited back then as well.

Further, the snip you read that the .357 magnum could be loaded to .30-30 ballistics might have suffered from "terminology drift". When two things have similar names folks sometimes incorrectly use a more common name, and so provide incorrect info. Perhaps it was the .357 maximum round, not the "magnum" round? The .357 max has a bit more case space, and handloaded hot, for use in a rifle or single shot handgun, might, just might, come close to the lower end of handload data for a .30-30.

LD

 

[matrem]

I'd stongly suggest the "thuddy-thuddy",unless your max range is less than 150'..NOT yards.
If you're willing to limit your range,either will "do fine"
As far as the caliber / diameter question? "good"bullets have erased most of that.

 

[JoeDanger]

Physics class:

Kinetic Energy, K = .5mv^2, where m is Mass, and v is Velocity. If you double the mass, you double the Kinetic Energy. If you double the velocity, you get 4 times the Ke. Trick is, you're not going to get double the velocity out of the .357 Magnum without blowing your Puma lever to pieces, so it's easier to play with this formula in a .30-30 configuration.

 

[MCgunner]

MCgunner...Have you looked into Double Tap ammo?

Nah. I've got 3 .357 revolvers and a .357 lever gun and I haven't bought a box of ammunition in 35 years in the caliber. I'd rather use my own. Besides, it's satisfying to kill game with a bullet you cast yourself.