Another study reaches obvious conclusion, much to the surprise of the many...

[morcey2]

That conclusion is that if you've never touched a gun in your life, you probably won't be able to defend yourself with one. In other news, people who have never touched a piano do very poorly when trying to perform on piano at Carnegie Hall.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattve...-get-killed-in-selfdefense-simulator-n2031884

So, National Gun Victims Action Council commissions a study by Mount St Mary's University to study how training affects how successfully people defend themselves with a firearm. They used a firearms training simulator. What did they find?

1. Police are your saviors.
2. If you're not an LEO, you're going to get yourself killed or kill an innocent person if you decide to carry a gun.

That's what they say. My interpretation is different. Basically that if you don't have training and don't practice enough, you'll likely not be able to defend yourself effectively.

The majority of people who participated in the study were people who had never had any training and had either never touched a gun or had done so very rarely.

Some problems with the study. First, sample size. From the actual study:

First, virtually all statistical tests are sensitive to sample size. We had
hoped to obtain a minimum of 35 participants per skill category. However, we failed to
achieve that goal in every group.

In the words of Brian Kenny, how about some Small Sample-Size Theater!

Second, they used Officers from same department that was running the training facility where the study was conducted:

Therefore, we recruited 32 police officers from
Prince George’s County to participate in the
study for a total of 77 respondents

Personally, I think that probably skewed the results in their favor already.

Anyway, it's later than I thought. Here's a link to the actually study doc:

http://www.gunvictimsaction.org/downloads22/FirearmsTrainings _StudyDocument_F_062115.pdf

and a link to the press release:

https://gunvictimsaction.org/press-...ndependent-study-at-police-training-facility/

The gist of it is this: They are pushing for mandatory firearms training which must be renewed bi-annually in order to even handle a gun. As an NRA Instructor, I firmly believe that everyone who uses a gun should have some training, but I'm absolutely against any mandate of said training.

Matt

 

[scaevola]

If gun training is a good idea let's start with Eddie Eagle in all elementary schools.

Project Appleseed in all junior high schools would be a good way to continue that training.

Promoting JROTC in high school might also be good for the country.

 

[mnrivrat]

We had a lot of holes shot into the ceiling baffels and other range area's after local law enforcement would come for shooting training.

I think I will depend on me to defend myself.

Nothing like doing a study designed to prove ones pre determined outcome.

 

[SwaneeSR]

Obviously the "study" served the purpose of getting their message out. That was the goal, not scientific search for truth.

I wonder how the group of unarmed citizens did in the simulator - maybe not too well even if they did take cover.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Well heck, they could have saved the studies money just by asking any instructor. We'd surely tell them that even amongst "gun people", the majority of them have almost no skill beyond putting holes in paper from a fixed distance in good lighting, standing still and under no stress... and then often poorly.

Still, I'll take that over not having an option to defend themselves at all.

If the study is right in it's conclusion that poorly trained people using guns for self defense are a serious danger to those around them, where are all the accidental and negligent shootings of bystanders?

 

[Midwest]

So, National Gun Victims Action Council commissions a study by Mount St Mary's University to study how training affects how successfully people defend themselves with a firearm. They used a firearms training simulator. What did they find?

1. Police are your saviors.

No they are not, police have no duty to protect

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/p...stitutional-duty-to-protect-someone.html?_r=0

Therefore, we recruited 32 police officers from
Prince George’s County to participate in the
study for a total of 77 respondents

Lets see...Prince George's County.... isn't that in Maryland? Why yes it is! And isn't Maryland is among the worst of anti-gun states that have strict discretionary non issue carry permits (read that as no issue to the general public)? Why, in fact it is! In fact Maryland shares the same strict no issue carry permits to the general public with two other states New Jersey and Hawaii.

So, National Gun Victims Action Council commissions a study

Is that the same National Gun Victims Council that had their tax exempt status revoked for failure to file a Form 990-series return or notice for three consecutive years? Isn't that some kind of serious IRS violation?


http://thegunwriter.blogs.heraldtribune.com/tag/national-gun-victims-action-council/



"The group claims to be a tax exempt organization, a 501(c)(3).oops

Their donations page states: “All donations are tax deductible to the fullest extent allowed by law.”

The Internal Revenue Service, however, revoked their tax exempt status on May 15 of this year.

Anyone who donated a substantial sum of money should notify their accountant.

Entering NGVAC’s Employer Identification Number (EIN) into an IRS tax exempt search page produced the following response: “The federal tax exemption of this organization was automatically revoked for its failure to file a Form 990-series return or notice for three consecutive years.” "
.

 

[Tirod]

More background noise by the anti gunners. Someone will come along with a empirical examination and discredit it. Not worth our time to bother when the OP has done so easily.

Fodder for internet worriers.

The proposal won't stand a chance in the Maryland legislature as it would enable the correlated activity of actually training people to use firearms. They don't want that - it's a no carry state. In the twisted logic of no carry, it would be legitimatizing carry and considered a bad thing.

The overall results will be about zero on the local and national level. Just more noise from the antigunners, with no legitimacy. It's to be expected.

 

[TimSr]

I'd like to see a comparison of gub club members vs local police depts.

People are shocked to learn that there tend to be no more "gun enthusiasts" in the policer community than the general population, and that most only shoot as often and as well as minimally required in their employment.

 

[herrwalther]

One simple fact destroys the entire "study." Most police departments only have enough money to practice and qualify once, maybe twice, a year. The typical concealed carrier practices far more than that. Even being a Mr Mom I still find the time and finances to hit the range four times a year. If Law enforcement is the training pinnacle of firearms defense on their limited training, why is a concealed carrier inferior with more training?

 

[1911 guy]

Training is a good thing. But they leave out the fact that there are many people who are currently civilians but weren't always. Despite common perception, many of us are trained well beyond the standards required of police officers.

The answer should be for everyone to train more. I have family and friends who view the police as their knight in shining armor. I'd like to believe that the cop showing up to bail out my grandma is trained well, not limited by political and budget restraints.

 

[happygeek]

That conclusion is that if you've never touched a gun in your life, you probably won't be able to defend yourself with one. In other news, people who have never touched a piano do very poorly when trying to perform on piano at Carnegie Hall.

The problem is that many people do use guns defensively every year, even if you don't believe Lott. The NCVS puts the number at 108,000 a year (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf, top of page 8), which is one of the lowest numbers out there for DGUs. Heck, Josh Sugermann of the VPC chose to run with their # in his book Every Handgun is Aimed at You.

They can run their biased simulation using a ridiculously small sample size all they want, the NCVS sampled a much, much larger population of actual crime victims.

 

[entropy]

If gun training is a good idea let's start with Eddie Eagle in all elementary schools.

Project Appleseed in all junior high schools would be a good way to continue that training.

Promoting JROTC in high school might also be good for the country.

+1!


Followed by one-year cumpusory military service, to include BRM.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Quote:
If gun training is a good idea let's start with Eddie Eagle in all elementary schools.

Project Appleseed in all junior high schools would be a good way to continue that training.

Promoting JROTC in high school might also be good for the country.

+1!


Followed by one-year cumpusory military service, to include BRM.

+1 and +1

Considering how pervasive firearms are in our society, and the historic and current effect they have on our culture; it is idiocy to not have firearms training and education on the importance of firearms in ensuring the safety of the weak from abuse by the strong.

One of the best things for the country would be a period of mandatory service to the nation, and with few exceptions would be required to be in part military training and service. Because it would require amending the U.S. Constitution, it would take a national catastrophe for it to happen.

 

[JohnBT]

"Prince George's County.... isn't that in Maryland?"

The same department that signed a Consent Decree with the U.S. Department of Justice in 2004. They turned their dogs loose a few times too many, etc.

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/documents/pgpd/pg_consent_decree.pdf

and

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/documents/pgpd/pg_consent_decree.pdf

This one was about the mentally, more use of force stuff, etc. I like this line in the index...

B. Critical Firearms Discharges and Creation of Firearm Discharge Review Board 10