Antique full auto reproduction legality?

[Kush]

This question has probably been asked before but I was wondering would it be legal to make a reproduction of the Colt Browning M1895, the definition of an antique firearm under US law is:

Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm with a frame or receiver manufactured in or before 1898 regardless of ignition system, or any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, and any replica of an antique firearm if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition, or uses fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels or commercial trade, any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. (Note: Antique firearms exemptions vary considerably under state laws.)

Now would a reproduction of the Colt Browning M1895 chambered in 6mm lee navy, which in that configuration was adopted by the navy and put into production in 1896 and fires a round that to my knowledge is no longer manufactured in the United States and I can't seem to find any manufactured by other companies be considered an antique under the law.

 

[USAF_Vet]

A reproduction of a gun made in 1895 would still be a gun manufactured in 2011. So it would not be legal unless you had the proper licenses.

what you would be making is a Newly Manufactured replica of an antique, not an antique itself, unless you happened to stumble across a parts kit from a gun manufactured prior to 1899 and assemble it. but even then, I'm not sure it would be a legal manufacture. Is the M1895 NFA exempt?

 

[CoRoMo]

NFA supersedes the antique or replica status. It would still be a post-'86 machinegun and would be regulated as such. Caliber/chambering also does not matter.

 

[EOD Guy]

There are two different definitions of an antique firearm in the law. You are using the wrong definition, from the Gun Control Act of 1968. Machine guns are regulated by the National Firearms Act. Here is the definition of an antique firearm under the National Firearms Act:

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 479_MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents

Subpart B_Definitions

Sec. 479.11 Meaning of terms.



Antique firearm. Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using
rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and
manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof,
whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also
any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for
which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is
not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

The part on ammunition not being readily available or no longer manufactured only applies to original firearms. It does not apply to replicas. Accordingly, a replica machine gun cannot use fixed ammunition and be classed as an antique under the NFA.

 

[Kush]

Wouldn't the definition in the 1968 Gun Control Act supersede the National Firearms Act definition as it was passed later?

 

[USAF_Vet]

If I'm reading that right, a newly manufactured replica of a pre 1899 design is still considered an antique?

 

[EOD Guy]

Wouldn't the definition in the 1968 Gun Control Act supersede the National Firearms Act definition as it was passed later?

No, it would not. They are two separate laws. They just happen to be codified in the same regulation (27CFR).

 

[col.lemat]

fixed ammunition and a hi capacity belt of moere than 10 rounds. I think that would prevent it from ever happening

 

[EOD Guy]

If I'm reading that right, a newly manufactured replica of a pre 1899 design is still considered an antique?

You're not reading it right. Under the National Firearms Act, a replica of a pre-1899 firearm cannot use fixed ammunition and be classed as an antique. Don't confuse the NFA definition with the GCA definition. They are slightly different.

 

[CoRoMo]

fixed ammunition and a hi capacity belt of moere than 10 rounds.

Has nothing to do with anything. I, the OP, anyone can build a perfectly legal firearm that has "fixed ammunition and a high capacity belt of more than 10 rounds", but if it is full auto, that key specification would make the whole thing NFA regulated, and if we're not a 07/02 SOT manufacturer, it is highly illegal. The former would not be designated as a replica/antique though, just a homemade gun.

 

[Kush]

No, it would not. They are two separate laws. They just happen to be codified in the same regulation (27CFR).

Well that's annoying. This is probably stupid to even ask come to think about it as i remember reading something about the ATF getting after Dixie Gun Works for making a reproduction of a Confederate shotgun with barrels shorter than 18 inches and saying that it was a NFA item even though it would be exempt.

 

[Sam1911]

the ATF getting after Dixie Gun Works for making a reproduction of a Confederate shotgun with barrels shorter than 18 inches and saying that it was a NFA item even though it would be exempt.

Fixed cartridge would be a no-no. Muzzle-loading replica would be fine.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 479_MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table

Subpart B_Definitions

Sec. 479.11 Meaning of terms.
Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18
inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other
weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or
a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included
within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm

Or from the NFA FAQ:

Q: Are muzzleloading cannons classified as destructive devices?
Generally, no. Muzzleloading cannons not capable of firing fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 and replicas thereof are antiques and not subject to the provisions of either the GCA or the NFA.

[26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11]

The US Code says...http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00005845----000-.html

(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Or, if you prefer: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2010/aprqtr/27cfr479.11.htm

 

[Kush]

OK now I'm confused, according Sam1911's post it sounds like the antique firearm exemption only counts for destructive devices, but I have seen muzzle loaders that fire 2 or more barrels with a single pull of the trigger which would be considered full auto under the NFA.

 

[EOD Guy]

OK now I'm confused, according Sam1911's post it sounds like the antique firearm exemption only counts for destructive devices, but I have seen muzzle loaders that fire 2 or more barrels with a single pull of the trigger which would be considered full auto under the NFA.

The term being defined is "Firearm", not destructive device. In other words, if an item meets the definition of an antique firearm, it is not a firearm under the NFA. We are talking legal terms here, not the ways words would normally be used in everyday life.

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, EOD Guy explained that well. You have to look at the text as though it were in outline form. They give the word being defined ("Firearm") and then list options a-h which are all "firearms" under this definition. Then it says, "This term shall not include ..."

 

[M-Cameron]

now i have a question.....

would it be legal to make a full auto muzzle loader?

something like an automatic muzzleloader Gatling gun?

or an automatic black powder revolver?

not that im planning on making one......just curious

it seems as thought it should be legal.....since NFA doesnt apply to muzzleloading arms.

 

[Kush]

OK, what about a muzzle loader that somehow adds more powder, seats the bullet, and puts a new percussion cap on the nipple automatically, then fires without you having to remove your finger from the trigger in a fully automatic fashion, as the antique firearm definition states that:

The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)

 

[USAF_Vet]

You're not reading it right. Under the National Firearms Act, a replica of a pre-1899 firearm cannot use fixed ammunition and be classed as an antique. Don't confuse the NFA definition with the GCA definition. They are slightly different.

Ok, then I was correct in my initial thought. Wow these laws are so confusing at times. When is a gun not a gun? Arrrgggh!

 

[deadin]

something like an automatic muzzleloader Gatling gun?

Why bother?? Just make a regular Gatling, they're not considered a machine gun under the law.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Hand cranked Gatling guns are not NFA, especial reproductions or near reproductions, more likely to be owned/used as collectors items than as actual weapons.

Add an electric motor though and you cross the line. That is weaponized.

 

[armoredman]

I'd love to have a hand cranked gatling style firearm in a modern caliber like .308, but the cost would be very prohibitive.

 

[M-Cameron]

Why bother?? Just make a regular Gatling, they're not considered a machine gun under the law.

not quite what i was asking.....

i know a handcranked gatling gun isnt a machine gun...........but if you motorize it, it will become one.....

my question is....if you make a muzzleloading gattling gun....and motorized it......is that technically an NFA weapon......or is it exempt because of its muzzle loader status.

 

[CoRoMo]

...if you make a muzzleloading gattling gun....and motorized it...

I can't speak to the regulatory status of the thing, but you'd basically spend all five, six, or however many barrels it would have, in about a second's time before you'd have to stuff each one loaded again.

 

[Kush]

I can't speak to the regulatory status of the thing, but you'd basically spend all five, six, or however many barrels it would have, in about a second's time before you'd have to stuff each one loaded again.

What if instead of a gatling gun you have a single barrel and a revolving cylinder and the barrel has a gas port that pushes a piston that pushes another bullet with the powder attached in a paper cartridge into the cylinder and somehow have it feed up another percussion cap. You could also replace the motor with having it turn to the next round and cock the hammer like a Mateba auto revolver or Webley Fosbury revolver.

 

[deadin]

Sounds a little like a variation on the P.W.Porter Cannister Magazine Rifle circ. 1850. It had a three compartment cannister on top of the rifle that held loose powder in one compartment, balls in another and a small tube that held fulminate for priming. When a lever was thrown, and everything worked right, a proper amount of powder, a bullet and some fulminate were metered into the right places and hopefully the remaining supply of powder and fulminate didn't go off when the gun was fired.