Zak Smith
Member
The RRA rifles/uppers I have used have been solid and reliable.
AR 15 Newbie needs help
- Thread starter Redheadedstranger
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benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Actually, I think RRA does care, but can't keep up with civilian demand. I asked my local dealer about them earlier this year, and he said they were at LEAST 10 weeks backordered. I think other manufacturers may be as well.
AR-15 type rifles are currently among the most popular centerfire rifles in America, and H.R.1022 and whatnot have only increased the demand. Regardless of what manufacturer you choose to order from, you may have to wait in line.
I don't know. However, if the government was only concerned about who could give them the best deal, then why would they even test submissions from 10 or 11 companies? Also, purchases for agencies are not nearly as large as purchases for the military. Therefore, money is not as big an issue.
Roger that.
Lone Gunman,
Are you a Colt fan or some other AR fan? I am not trying to bash you or anything. I see and understand your point. However, like I have said before, ARs from different manufacturers have minor and insignificant differences. Because the differences are insignificant, price is the only remaining issue. Is RRA the best? I don't know. Will the differences between RRA and other manufacturers cost lives? Probably not. That was the point of the testing: to see if the AR could hold its own in a combat situation. The AR that could and could also offer the best bid was probably deemed "the best" and was awarded the contract, in this case RRA.
Your questions are a bit of a mixed bag, so I'll offer what I've got on the matter. 
When I bought my AR several years ago, I was looking for an 18" barrel; i was unable to find one in a ready-to-go rifle in a configuration I wanted; 16" barrels are much more common in the carbine category (what I was after).
I ended up getting a Rock River Arms CAR-15 - their "entry tactical" model. From all I've read, it's the best price/performance in a ready-made rifle (I got mine for $749 IIRC, but prices have changed a bit since then I believe). In addition, from my handling of Olympic, Bushmaster, and Colt AR15s in gun shops, I have not been pleased with some combination of their lower to upper fit, finish coloration (usually: it's shiny), trigger heaviness or grittiness, cheap appearance of their plastic furniture, and even the fairly gritty sound and feel when working the action.
My RRA? I'm very pleased with it, and I've had none of those problems. RRA ARs are the only ones I know of which come with a double-stage trigger (something I like) out of the box, so there was an additional $100 or so I'd not have to put into it. For hte most part, I don't think you'll notice much of a difference between brands in terms of actual function, aside from the trigger, and provided the internals are properly maintained and lubricated. However, I can speak a positive word of my RRA AR: I've put over 3k rounds through it at this point and I've not had a single malfunction aside from the trigger's double stage going out and getting really light (at about 800 rds), and that was fixed with a quick RMA to RRA (no cost, natch). (That's a known problem with double stage triggers when they're newer, apparently).
RRA rifles are based off of the same receivers as Stag, but at a bit less of a cost. A company with a 4-letter acrostic for a name (starts with a "C" and has an "M" in it - that's all I can recall; has something to do with Connecticut machinery I think)You can't go wrong with a Stag Arms rifle, either - but they're a bit more expensive.
If you want a complete rifle, I'd say get a Rock River with a 16" barrel. If you get something like their "Elite CAR A4" or the "Entry tactical" you'll be getting a good gun. The collapsible stock may not be preferable (I don't like them so much, myself), but they can be replaced, and they can also be used by people of various stature comfortably (both me - 6'2" - and my wife - 5'4" - can comfortably use my AR).
if you want to buy the receiver separate from the upper, you'll probably be able to save anywhre from $100 to $200, depending on what you want to get. You'll save more doing it this way the more expensive the gun is, as the ATF tax on a complete rifle is a percentage, but it's a tax shackled to the receiver. Thus, if you byu the receiver (completed or not) separate, it'll save money either way. If you don't mind used parts, you could build a quality rifle for under $650 with little problem, I think.
Regardless, something you'll want to consider when picking your specific upper is whether you want a 'carbine' upper or a 'midlength' upper. I'm not sure on the exact criteria, but my understanding is that the carbine has a shorter handguard (therefore the front sight post is closer to the receiver and further from the muzzle, decreasing sight accuracy but increasing sight acquisitoin speed). The midlength has the longer handguard, and therefore a longer sight radius (making precision aiming a bit easier).
EDIT: I bought my RRA from ar15sales.com ; he was a bit difficult to get a hold of, if only for the fact that we ran into time problems where I would call when he wasn't available (ie in the evenings). It's just a one-guy shop, IIRC, but oculd be a family ordeal. He's got (or did have, at the time) very good prices for the stock RRA rifles, and I was also able to get my rifle within (IIRC) about 4 weeks of placing the order - which is incredible compared to through RRA itself.
ETA2: When I did mail my receiver back to RRA to fix the trigger, it took about 3 weeks all told. They were very quick to tell me what I needed to do, and were friendly as well - very good support (me, being an idiot, called back 2 or three times to the same guy asking questions). Oh, and it didn't cost me shipping, either.
When I bought my AR several years ago, I was looking for an 18" barrel; i was unable to find one in a ready-to-go rifle in a configuration I wanted; 16" barrels are much more common in the carbine category (what I was after).
I ended up getting a Rock River Arms CAR-15 - their "entry tactical" model. From all I've read, it's the best price/performance in a ready-made rifle (I got mine for $749 IIRC, but prices have changed a bit since then I believe). In addition, from my handling of Olympic, Bushmaster, and Colt AR15s in gun shops, I have not been pleased with some combination of their lower to upper fit, finish coloration (usually: it's shiny), trigger heaviness or grittiness, cheap appearance of their plastic furniture, and even the fairly gritty sound and feel when working the action.
My RRA? I'm very pleased with it, and I've had none of those problems. RRA ARs are the only ones I know of which come with a double-stage trigger (something I like) out of the box, so there was an additional $100 or so I'd not have to put into it. For hte most part, I don't think you'll notice much of a difference between brands in terms of actual function, aside from the trigger, and provided the internals are properly maintained and lubricated. However, I can speak a positive word of my RRA AR: I've put over 3k rounds through it at this point and I've not had a single malfunction aside from the trigger's double stage going out and getting really light (at about 800 rds), and that was fixed with a quick RMA to RRA (no cost, natch). (That's a known problem with double stage triggers when they're newer, apparently).
RRA rifles are based off of the same receivers as Stag, but at a bit less of a cost. A company with a 4-letter acrostic for a name (starts with a "C" and has an "M" in it - that's all I can recall; has something to do with Connecticut machinery I think
)You can't go wrong with a Stag Arms rifle, either - but they're a bit more expensive.If you want a complete rifle, I'd say get a Rock River with a 16" barrel. If you get something like their "Elite CAR A4" or the "Entry tactical" you'll be getting a good gun. The collapsible stock may not be preferable (I don't like them so much, myself), but they can be replaced, and they can also be used by people of various stature comfortably (both me - 6'2" - and my wife - 5'4" - can comfortably use my AR).
if you want to buy the receiver separate from the upper, you'll probably be able to save anywhre from $100 to $200, depending on what you want to get. You'll save more doing it this way the more expensive the gun is, as the ATF tax on a complete rifle is a percentage, but it's a tax shackled to the receiver. Thus, if you byu the receiver (completed or not) separate, it'll save money either way. If you don't mind used parts, you could build a quality rifle for under $650 with little problem, I think.
Regardless, something you'll want to consider when picking your specific upper is whether you want a 'carbine' upper or a 'midlength' upper. I'm not sure on the exact criteria, but my understanding is that the carbine has a shorter handguard (therefore the front sight post is closer to the receiver and further from the muzzle, decreasing sight accuracy but increasing sight acquisitoin speed). The midlength has the longer handguard, and therefore a longer sight radius (making precision aiming a bit easier).
EDIT: I bought my RRA from ar15sales.com ; he was a bit difficult to get a hold of, if only for the fact that we ran into time problems where I would call when he wasn't available (ie in the evenings). It's just a one-guy shop, IIRC, but oculd be a family ordeal. He's got (or did have, at the time) very good prices for the stock RRA rifles, and I was also able to get my rifle within (IIRC) about 4 weeks of placing the order - which is incredible compared to through RRA itself.
ETA2: When I did mail my receiver back to RRA to fix the trigger, it took about 3 weeks all told. They were very quick to tell me what I needed to do, and were friendly as well - very good support (me, being an idiot, called back 2 or three times to the same guy asking questions). Oh, and it didn't cost me shipping, either.
I guess what I don't understand is why some think that the fact that Rock River got the contract can be construed to mean their rifles are better than competitors, if the fact that they were the low bidder is the reason they got the contract.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Rock River ARs met the government requirements, and came in with a lower bid than competitors?
I am not trying to insult Rock River. I have no experience with their product. I just don't think that because the DEA and FBI are using them necessarily means they are better.
__________________
It doesn't, and I never understand what guys who like Colts get so pissed off that the DEA and FBI started buying RRA's.
The DEA and the FBI have a very specific mission, just the same as the military does, and the fact that they have decided that RRA is what they need to fullfill their mission doesn't mean that somebody who picks Colt to fullfill their mission made a worse or better choice. DEA also buys M-203's,
M249's and a lot of other different guns for their foreign mission, which at times can be more para-military than law enforcement (how many other LE agencies have a qualification course for 40mm HE grenades).
But, one good thing about any federal agency buying a rifle is that they test the bejesus out of it, and keep detailed records. When DEA issues a new Colt, H&K or RRA to an agent, it comes with a little green record book, where all of the rounds fired, malfunctions and type, cleanings, and ammo type, are recorded.
And reviews of those records, not personal antedocts from agents, gun writers, gun trainers, or guys on the internet, are what they use when making future decisions of what to buy.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Rock River ARs met the government requirements, and came in with a lower bid than competitors?
I am not trying to insult Rock River. I have no experience with their product. I just don't think that because the DEA and FBI are using them necessarily means they are better.
__________________
It doesn't, and I never understand what guys who like Colts get so pissed off that the DEA and FBI started buying RRA's.
The DEA and the FBI have a very specific mission, just the same as the military does, and the fact that they have decided that RRA is what they need to fullfill their mission doesn't mean that somebody who picks Colt to fullfill their mission made a worse or better choice. DEA also buys M-203's,
M249's and a lot of other different guns for their foreign mission, which at times can be more para-military than law enforcement (how many other LE agencies have a qualification course for 40mm HE grenades
).But, one good thing about any federal agency buying a rifle is that they test the bejesus out of it, and keep detailed records. When DEA issues a new Colt, H&K or RRA to an agent, it comes with a little green record book, where all of the rounds fired, malfunctions and type, cleanings, and ammo type, are recorded.
And reviews of those records, not personal antedocts from agents, gun writers, gun trainers, or guys on the internet, are what they use when making future decisions of what to buy.
Lone_Gunman
Member
I believe government agencies are required to request bids, and then test the products of the companies that submitted bids.
Thats not really true. Although the contract is smaller for those agencies, their budgets are proportionally smaller than the military also.
Certainly not a Colt fan. Their disdain for the public market and not wanting to sell rifles with flashiders and bayo lugs to the public was a big turn off to me. I am neutral on RRA. I have handled some, but have never fired one. They look very nice.
I wasn't trying to bash RRA by suggesting they got the contract because they were the low bidder. I realize and understand that their rifle met the requirements. But I also bet that several other company's rifles did also, and RRA ended up with the contract because of price.
My point is, that whoever ends up with the government contract is not making the best weapon, just the best for the money.
RockyMtnTactical
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2006
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Nobody can keep up with demand right now... The military is not the only ones buying guns and ammo as fast as they can be produced... the civilian demand is HUGE right now. It's taking me forever to get stuff from Stag and RRA right now...
I have two RRA's, a Predator Pursuit and a Tactical Entry. I walked into my local dealer and bought them off the shelf for $925 and $800 respectively. The local gunshows always have new RRA's for those prices in Texas.
BTW: both are sub-moa, out of the box with no break-in and have amazing triggers. I shot the PP in a high power match when it had only a hundred rounds through it, and it did very well with zero malfunctions and excellent accuracy.
BTW: both are sub-moa, out of the box with no break-in and have amazing triggers. I shot the PP in a high power match when it had only a hundred rounds through it, and it did very well with zero malfunctions and excellent accuracy.
Glockman17366
Member
"The manufacturer of the O rings on the space shuttle rockets also met minimum government requirements, and was the lowest bidder. I don't think the Challenger astronauts would think this manufacturer made the best product though."
The O-Rings failed for reasons that were beyond the manufacturers' control.
The decision to launch the Challenger overrode concerns by the Engineering teams (including the manufactures' concerns) about the safety of launching at a low ambient temperature.
This disaster had nothing to do with the cost of the O-Rings.
The O-Rings failed for reasons that were beyond the manufacturers' control.
The decision to launch the Challenger overrode concerns by the Engineering teams (including the manufactures' concerns) about the safety of launching at a low ambient temperature.
This disaster had nothing to do with the cost of the O-Rings.
This is an interesting read if you want to learn about ARs
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=243382&highlight=lmt
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=243382&highlight=lmt
Lone_Gunman
Member
Ah, but the fact that the manufacturere got the contract is related to cost. Are you saying with 100% certainty that the O rings of a different manufacturer would have failed also? I don't recall the the details of the O rings well enough to say, and was only using that as an analogy, and it may admittedly be a flawed analogy if there was no possible way for anyone's O rings to work.
My point remains that just because you win a government product does not necessarily mean your product is better.
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