AR Accuracy with Lake City M193

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I would say not bad for standard bushmaster.

Chrome lined & Rate of twist?
Atmospherics?
How are you shooting, fast, slow. Bench, prone, etc??
 
1stmarine said:
Also a couple of the example targets they posted (on zero) are from the
XM193 below MOA. Of course they have their systems strapped to the bench.

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?66619-Top-Tier-AR15-Accuracy-Challenge
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According to that webpage:

"Initial sighting and zero was accomplished with Federal XM193 ammunition.
Final target sighting was accomplished with Black Hills reloaded .223 ammunition."

So that doesn't appear to be Federal XM193 in those targets.
 
The friend that sent me the link told me the guys used a couple of he sample targets that were from the baseline.

Before we talk about the targets you were concerned about the speed I was getting. I am also concern you might not be using the same ammo.
Can you confirm is the same ammo we are talking about? ...otherwise something is wrong. I do not understand why anyone with a 16" Barrel should be getting anything very different. As I already mentioned the spreads I measure with an RCBS ammo master that has been a very reliable Chrono. More accurate than another Chrony brand I have.

I save most of my targets and keep a code in my files for future reference so this week I will go to some big folders I keep in my basement and try to find the targets for these loads and dates, make pictures and post them here. Also if you have any questions about the AR's setup let me know. If you are not interested let me know. Last thing I want is arguments about your load vs. mine, your AR vs mine and you accuracy vs. mine and all the non sense that we see everywhere that leads nowhere and nobody really learns anything.

So what you called BS lets clear that one out in good faith. Lets start with the speed. Go and look for other references.

Thanks.
 
I would say not bad for standard bushmaster.

Chrome lined & Rate of twist?
Atmospherics?
How are you shooting, fast, slow. Bench, prone, etc??
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Chrome lined 1/9.
Wind 10-15
Fast, bench.
 
Bartholomew,
Did you check the speed to make sure we are in the same page? No BS there right?
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You've got me confused with someone else who replied as I never raised any issue with the speed. I am just surprised at the accuracy you report as that is way, way, better than I've ever seen Federal XM193 shoot from any barrel.
 
uh, that might be me he's talking too. I called "BS" on his claims of both velocity and accuracy with the M193 ammunition out of an 16" barrel, although I don't have as much of a problem with the velocity claim and I do with the accuracy claim.

I mean, M193 is spec'd to give ~3200 fps out of a 20" barrel, right? How can you get the same velocity out of a 16" barrel. I'm thinking that you're having a problem with your chrony.
 
One thing I've learned from 30 years of shooting and racing motorcycles: there's ALWAYS somebody faster, better, or more accurate. Listen to what he has to say and you might learn something.
 
One thing I've learned from 30 years of shooting and racing motorcycles: there's ALWAYS somebody faster, better, or more accurate.
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If anybody can show me how to make XM193 shoot sub-MOA out of the barrels mentioned, I am definitely interested in learning how that works. However, I am having a hard time figuring out how that works since M193, which is also produced by Federal, is 3-4 MOA ammo out of an Army test fixture.
 
A) A good speed out of a 16" should be in the 3,156 ~ 3,162 fps otherwise
you are not shooting the same ammo or YOUR chrono is broken, not mine.

B) A match grade accurate AR should give you below MOA and a good std.
AR should not give you a lot more just above MOA ...1.2MOA max.

There is nothing broken chrono or math or anything here, everything is done by the book. Use this, or don't use this, whatever you want to do.
I don't invest more time in explaining anything if nobody is interested. do whatever you want.
 
Marine
your data is accurate. Leave the kids alone.
Keep shooting straight and don't piss against the wind.
 
1stmarine said:
B) A match grade accurate AR should give you below MOA and a good std. AR should not give you a lot more just above MOA ...1.2MOA max.
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Well, I've got a Lilja stainless match barrel. It will shoot Hornady and Black Hills sub-moa; but I've never been able to shoot a sub-moa 5 round group of Federal XM193 out of it. And out of a regular barrel, 1.5 MOA would be an exceptional 5 round group.

Since I can shoot some types of ammo sub-MOA, I know I have the skill level necessary to shoot sub-MOA, so I do not understand why I have never seen that kind of performance out of XM193 if the ammo is capable of it. And in this military study evaluating the accuracy of M193 the best group they saw was 3.2 MOA, so I don't understand why new factory ammo would show more than twice the extreme spread of rejected components of that same ammo reassembled on the same machines.

And I think we are all interested in learning more from you. I know I would love to learn how that works and how you are having such success with M193.
 
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Since I can shoot some types of ammo sub-MOA, I know I have the skill level necessary to shoot sub-MOA, so I do not understand why I have never seen that kind of performance out of XM193. And in this military study evaluating the accuracy of M193 the best group they saw was 3.2 MOA, so I don't understand why new factory ammo would show more than twice the extreme spread of rejected components of that same ammo reassembled on the same machines.
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First, you will have to be more open to some new things. That RIA study you are referring to is going on 40 years old. I'm not sure WHY you are referring to data and research that is almost 40 years old, particularly a government study, but just barrel metallurgy and ammo. components alone have changed significantly since then. If you would like to restrict your shooting accuracy to those data, that has been your DECISION.


Second, match your variables to 1stmarine's stated variables.

Third, vaguely related to #1, if you believe you wil never shoot 193s sub MOA you NEVER will. Coaching by 1stmarine will not help.

Fourth, I mean these things in the nicest possible manner. In firearms training the biggest hurdles and limitations I see with students is themselves, and not the firearms or the ammo.. YMMV.
 
Lets try something constructive...

1stMarine, I understand from your posts that you have extensive experience in the military and with the AR platform, but something inside of me is making me want to call BS on the above claims. I'm not trying to engage in an argument, but the OP asked a bonafide question and I feel that your information is misleading.

First, I believe that your claims of velocity obtained with the M193 ammo from a 16" barrel is rather optimistic by maybe a couple hundred feet per second.
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As an example the velocity is obtained from 16" barrels is: 3,156 ~ 3,162 fps.
The speed spreads are measured using at RCBS ammo master chrono. I have a chorny too but I use the RCBS as it has been more accurate on average. Ocasionally we shoot same ammo through several chronos including some pretty sophisticated setups some bench rests shooters use at one of the clubs we shoot to make sure THEY ARE TRUE and stay TRUE measures. This is paramount to build ballistics charts for long range shooting. W/o accurate speeds you got nothing. 16" ARs is not in the menu but I also like to document what factory ammo can do and share with folks for their knowledge.

Since I got no reply on this subject I have to assume the person doing the testing is: A) using another ammo by mistake. B) His/her chrono is not working properly. C) Made other mistake.

Secondly, and this is no claim that I've seen it all, but I've never seen any rifle shoot sub MOA with any sort of consistency with M193. I've seen flukes, but no two or three five shot groups in a row. If your claims of accuracy are true, there are thousands of guys across the country wasting their money on the likes of Krieger, Pac Nor and Lilja to get barrels that will consistently shoot sub MOA. They are also wasting countless hours loading premium projectiles for ammunition that will allow their expensive barrels to really shine.

Of course, I could be wrong and you could very well have three, off the shelf rifles that can shoot crap ammunition with sub MOA accuracy. If this is the case, I'd suggest that you hang on to them, because they certainly aren't representative of what is the norm.

Personally, I've put blood, sweat and tears into a few of my AR builds just so that I can say that I built an AR that will shoot sub MOA all of the time (provided that I'm up to the task). I've also spent a butt load of time working up loads for those rifle and a lot of money feeding them.

Like I said, I'm not trying to start an argument, I just don't want the OP sitting there and wondering why his AR won't give him sub MOA groups with milspec ammo.
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Accuracy:
Regarding accuracy and among many other things, there are a few facts that are very important to know:

A) AR Match barrels are extremely accurate many times going mano a mano with the best bolt systems.

B) A match barrel is not guarantee of extreme accuracy with a particular load, commercial or not. What we commonly hear as "my barrel doesn't like this load".

C) Heavy barrels in 16" are also extremely accurate, even "low-tier" systems (Whatever that means). All other things being equal, a short barrel is more accurate than a long one. You loose a tad speed but that is a different subject. This doesn't mean a long barrel can be more accurate than a short one with a specific load. Many times they are but what I mean is a simple matter of physics.

D) Non-chrome barrels are more accurate than chromed ones.

E) A good bench rest setup to test the carbine's accuracy potential (not the shooter's ability) is paramount.

F) Federal XM193 LC brass is a good consistent, clean burning load ideal for a 5.56 or wylde chamber. It is an affordable good load but not a match load. Match load accuracy potential starts below 1/2MOA by today standards.


I keep good track of all my loads in excel (mostly match stuff) but I also have lots of data of commercial load testing.
I keep most of my targets, specially anything I measure for accuracy, but I have dozens of folders accumulated in the basement.
If anyone is interested I will find targets for this load and I will post them here. I welcome anyone to join a Saturday afternoon to do some shooting and discussion with anything I have. Same I have been doing for 20+ years after I retired from the service. Send me a PM to see if you are close by if you are interested.

Cheers.
E.
 
In all the years I ran ranges we seldom saw an M16A1 that couldn't shoot 2 MOA (many would do better even with only that old 3X Colt scope mounted on the carry handle) and if one shot 4 MOA we knew there was something wrong with it. We HAD to use M193 with the M16A2s when they were issued to us. Those guns came from the 82nd and still, they would do 2.5 MOA or better. The truth is that a gun that shoots 2-3 MOA is very usable. It isn't a match gun but if that is what you want, spend the money and build one!
 
jackpinesavages said:
First, you will have to be more open to some new things.
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I am open to new things. After all, I am here listening to you and 1stmarine tell me that it is possible to shoot XM193 sub-MOA at 100yds, even though I've been shooting AR15s and M16s for over 20 years now and have never accomplished or even seen that feat performed with anything more than a 3-round group.

That RIA study you are referring to is going on 40 years old. I'm not sure WHY you are referring to data and research that is almost 40 years old, particularly a government study, but just barrel metallurgy and ammo.
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Yes, it is 40 years old because the accuracy standard for M193 was established as part of MIL-C-9963F in 1976 and hasn't changed since then. In fact, MIL-C-9963 hasn't been amended since 1999 when the accuracy standard was the same as 1976 - an average mean radius of 2.0" at 200yds, which would give an extreme spread much higher than what 1stmarine reports. And that is from a test firing fixture - which pretty much eliminates all human error.

Federal XM193 is an M193 clone manufactured from the same components as M193 and in the same plant in many cases. So it should be very similar to M193.

However, since the results of that test are pretty much inline with every accuracy test of M193 (or M193 clone) ammo I have ever seen, there are plenty of more recent examples if you would like to see them. Here is an excellent test of M193 clones by Molon at AR15.com (as a bonus it has a picture of a test firing fixture so you can see what that looks like). He used a 16" Colt HBAR. The best performing M193 clone load had an average extreme spread for 10 rounds at 100yds of 2.79" - which according to 1stmarine is almost twice what he should expect from that barrel.

Second, match your variables to 1stmarine's stated variables.
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I've got a little over 20 years experience owning, building, and shooting AR15s and M16s. During that time, I've never personally fired or even seen any M193 or M193 clone shoot a sub-MOA extreme spread for any group of more than 3-shots.

Fourth, I mean these things in the nicest possible manner. In firearms training the biggest hurdles and limitations I see with students is themselves, and not the firearms or the ammo.. YMMV.
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Based on the quality of your commentary thus far, I think having you as an instructor is probably your student's biggest limitation; but I mean that in the nicest possible manner.

1stmarine said:
A) AR Match barrels are extremely accurate many times going mano a mano with the best bolt systems.

B) A match barrel is not guarantee of extreme accuracy with a particular load, commercial or not. What we commonly hear as "my barrel doesn't like this load".
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I think everybody here understands that. We have a fairly good group of shooter who do actually get out and shoot. The problem I am having is that I've never seen that kind of performance from any barrel - EVER - in 20 years of shooting and watching others shoot. And you are telling me you've got four different barrels that are nothing particularly special that all perform that well. So I am having a difficult time reconciling my own personal experience with what you are saying.

C) Heavy barrels in 16" are also extremely accurate, even "low-tier" systems (Whatever that means). All other things being equal, a short barrel is more accurate than a long one. You loose a tad speed but that is a different subject. This doesn't mean a long barrel can be more accurate than a short one with a specific load. Many times they are but what I mean is a simple matter of physics.
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As I mentioned earlier, I'm using a 16" Lilja stainless steel match barrel with a hybrid chamber. It is a medium profile at 32oz. It will shoot Hornady 55gr boattails sub-MOA. it will shoot pretty much any match ammo sub-MOA. The best it has ever shot any XM193 load is a 5-round (not 10) group of around 2.5" at 100yds. It meets every single one of the criteria you have named as necessary (unlined, short barrel, heavier profile, hybrid chamber, match barrel).

Yet I'm not seeing sub-MOA. I'm not even seeing the groups you state I should get from a chrome-lined 1:7 standard run of the mill AR barrel.

Apparently, I can shoot sub-MOA with other ammo, so I am mystified why I am not seeing that performance with XM193 if it is capable of it.
 
Actual Chrono data from no name full lenght AR 16 inch of actual rifled barrel, several years ago. Exact date and temp not recorded. This was with open sights, the small peep sighted into 1 hundred yards.

Fed XM193 Lot-10 , 02 headstamp. Avg vel 4 rounds = 3155 fps. Accuracy listed as very good, and remeber this being very accurate out of rifle.

Win Q3131A, lot TB71 looks like 01 head stamp. Av vel 6 rounds = 3112 fps
Accuracy listed as good potential about 1.5 in @ 100 yards

Win USA223R1VP, unknown lot, avg vel for 3 rounds = 2955 fps



From diifferent chrono, specific date and time not listed

Q3131A Lot TB71, av vel 3 rounds 3029 fps. Could easily be temp/distance to chrono/barrel heat etc. related


Recently aquired a RRA ATH, and it is extremely accurate. Next time i have it out to range , will take some of the M193 with and try it. Wouldn't be at all suprised at less than MOA. (bipod and rear bag, max 4x at scope)
 
Hmmm ... lots of talk but no targets showing tiny groups with XM193, but quite a few posts showing typical groups with that ammunition. I can post a bunch of targets showing what my 24" stainless fluted DPMS barrel does with my reloads and Black Hills 55gr reman ... consistently under 0.5 MOA. And yet that same rifle won't consistently shoot under 1.5 MOA with XM193. Typically, 5 and 10-shot groups will range from 1.5 to 2 MOA. As far as I'm concerned, it has to be the ammunition. I'd be one happy camper if that rifle would do better but it doesn't. I use XM193 in my carbine for 2 and 3-gun matches, plinking and SD ... not a big deal really.
 
First, I believe that your claims of velocity obtained with the M193 ammo from a 16" barrel is rather optimistic by maybe a couple hundred feet per second.
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I am going to look for some targets in some old folders I have archived and then scan them and post them here. in the mean time CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CONFIRM WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME AMMO?....

How can this be the same ammo and shoot 200fps slower? M193 is well known to be pretty consistent and clean burning ammo.
I bet not even in the north pole one could get this variation of 200fps out of the M193.

Mine were tested in pretty standard conditions
400ft elevation Temp:40-50 3-5mph 90dg. wind.
 
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