AR Accuracy with Lake City M193

[TonyAngel]

Since I got no reply on this subject I have to assume the person doing the testing is: A) using another ammo by mistake. B) His/her chrono is not working properly. C) Made other mistake.

1stMarine, you really shouldn't go assuming things like that. Quite frankly, I give up. This isn't even a discussion because your claims are so far off from what is KNOWN to be true.

Let me ask you this, anyway. How many rifles have you built? I've built a lot of them and I know what it takes to make an AR shoot straight. I learned a lot of it through trial and error, but I do have a good idea. I also know that a rifle built with the best components won't shoot worth a darn unless you feed it good ammunition.

When was the last time that you took a random sampling of M193, pulled the bullets and weighed the components to see how consistent they were? Did you ever measure the projectiles from the base to the ogive? I have. Some lots weren't too bad. Some lots were pretty bad. The point is that M193 isn't as consistent as you are proclaiming it to be. True match grade bullets vary VERY little in all specs that matter. Consistency is what makes accuracy and M193 just doesn't have it.

 

[jackpinesavages]

Mr. Roberts:

Based on the quality of your commentary thus far, I think having you as an instructor is probably your student's biggest limitation; but I mean that in the nicest possible manner.

I can appreciate that.

I was not being sarcastic when I inferred being nice. This is The High Road where we are trying to assist one another, rather than belittle each other. However, if you would like to take the low road that again is your decision.
When you transfer this negative energy in searching out how other people are wrong, into asking better questions or finding solutions in that same research time, your shooting will improve and so will your rifle builds.

Excellent thread example for Instructors as well as shooters of 193. Carry on 1st marine-thanks for your excellent contributions.

 

[zeke]

jackpinesavages-From the city of the annual Jack Pine Savage festival? Maybe this year, i will buy a t-shirt?

 

[1stmarine]

TonyAngel,
I built or help build more than 250 systems in my life this without counting the ones I helped my brother or my father built. Not all for me but helped many folks build match winning systems and long range surgical systems for hunting. Always researching and learning how to make them better and, if possible, for less so it is affordable for the average working american. I also mentor young kids in both rifle and skeet and proper marksmanship routines and safety above all. In the service I was a DM in my unit but this really doesn't mean anything since most average shooters with a few days of good training can achieve amazing results.

I never mentioned that M193 is considered match ammo so I don't know where that is coming from.

A side note:
I keep learning every day from everyone. Sometimes from good fellow members in this forum.

I posted my data here in good faith and you quickly replied declaring this data BS. That is a very mature and professional approach I have to say.

I see this every day. 9mm vs. 40cal, AK vs. AR, 6.8 vs grendel, slugs vs buckshot, and the list goes on and on... All very boring and sad. MINE VS YOURS, just like little kids.

This is just simple load data man. nothing else.

..............

One day when one of the students asked Morihei Ueshiba (the founder of the Aikido Martial Art) Master, how does it feel to be such a great expert, knowing and mastering every technique? he simply replied.... I am another student son, the day I stop learning, that day I am dead. He was 82 years old.

 

[1stmarine]

... and I forgot...

I fabricate some pieces from scratch for my ARs and other systems. If I cannot fabricate a piece in my lathe I send the CAD design to a reputable firm and they take care of cutting it for me.

Cheers.
E.

 

[1stmarine]

For those M193 infidels. After my skeet practice today I stopped by the range to test some 6x45 handloads and I also brought a couple of uppers and a few rounds of M193. It was late and I was going fast so the barrel was on fire but in any case this is a good example of what this nifty factory round can do. No measuring, no weighting, no nothing. open a few boxes and bang bang...

Open the box...



Also a few from the bulk case...




Target at 100...




Delton 16HB#2 upper...








RRA NM 20"#1 upper...






Another decent group with the delton...



As you can see nothing close to 2 or 3 moa as some claim here.
There is no "secret" about this. The federal is a very good round, consistent, clean, great brass for reloads, we could not ask for anything else for a price range of $240-290 for 900 rounds.

Again, this is not match ammo. It will never be. So don't say things I never said.


This is match ammo. ..1/4MOA....
6x45 SGK 90gr with 27gr of varget. LC brass, nice! ... one .223 round there in the middle.




3x Rapid fire hunting loads inside the dime....


I have .223 rounds but I am don't have them scanned and uploaded. That's enough for today and this non-sense.

 

[jbkebert]

Good pict's and nice shooting.

 

[MCMXI]

1stmarine, I really don't know what to think of this. The next time I go to the range I'll shoot some XM193 with my sub 0.5 MOA DPMS and also some 77gr SMKs and will post those groups. I'll even video the impacts on target for you. Maybe you'll be able to tell me why I don't get anything close to your results. Out of interest, how do those ARs shoot with your handloads, and what handloads do you use?

 

[M1key]

Great job 1st Marine! Take that all you skeptics.

I often get the similar grief when I make accuracy claims on the internet.

Everyone seems to want proof of accuracy claims, just cuz they aren't getting as good results as you...

M

 

[dom1104]

Marines are so awesome.

They can truly make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

You are awesome 1stmarine.

 

[MCMXI]

Everyone seems to want proof of accuracy claims, just cuz they aren't getting as good results as you...

When 9 out of 10 shooters aren't getting the results that 1stmarine has shown, is it surprising that there are skeptics (me included). When the company that makes the ammunition only claims "3-10round groups not to exceed 2.00" mean radius maximum average at 200 yards" is it unreasonable to expect more than just numbers? That's MEAN RADIUS MAXIMUM in case you hadn't noticed. If you're implying that the explanation for the discrepancy is simply down to shooter ability then you clearly haven't been paying attention.

 

[TonyAngel]

1stMarine, this is what you first posted....

This is some of the data I have:
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average Speed: 3,156
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average group: 0.90 MOA

XM193 in RRA 16" M4 Adams Piston - average Speed: 3,162
XM193 in RRA 16" M4 Adams Piston - average group: 0.85 MOA

XM193 in RRA 20" National Match - average Speed: 3,228
XM193 in RRA 20" National Match - average group: 0.70 MOA

Note your claims of average group sizes. According to your claims, all three of those rifles are solid sub MOA shooters with M193. What that means to me is that they will shoot that way ALL of the time.

In those pics that you posted above, I do see the groups that you are directing our attention to, but I also see a bunch of groups that are more representative of what you can expect from M193. As I noted before, it wouldn't surprise me to get some really good groups out of that ammo sometimes, but it isn't going to happen with any consistency.

This is what consistency looks like....










I would call this rifle with those loads a consistent sub MOA shooter, because it will do it every time, not just every once in a while.

 

[M1key]

Handloaded heavy 308 match in a 5 mph wind?

1stmarine is shooting military reject 5.56 in a 3-9 mph wind.

The claim from most here is that they NEVER achieve anything close to moa groups.

I think 1stmarine has effectively made his case

Unless ALL of you are lying.

Peace out,

M

 

[MCMXI]

I think 1stmarine has effectively made his case

For the ammunition or for his rifles ... or both? Many of us here shoot regularly, shoot well and have quite a bit of experience with both factory ammunition and handloads. It's not as if we wouldn't be happy if we had similar success with XM193. I'd be VERY happy if I could buy a case of 1,000 for $350 and have it shoot this well out of my rifles. Who could ask for better for a carbine? This thread has me scratching my head.

 

[TonyAngel]

M1key, you've obviously missed the point. The point I was trying to make is that the above rifle showed a level of consistency with certain ammunition that would live up to a claim that it was a sub MOA shooter. 1stMarine has proven no such thing. I've seen no evidence of his claim that he, his rifles and the ammunition are capable of AVERAGE groups in the sub MOA range.

All I've seen is a few cherry picked groups.

To be honest, I truly do wish that 1stMarine was right. As 1858 mentioned, I too would LOVE to be able to pick up a case of 1000 rounds for under $350 and have it shoot to even MOA, which is more than good enough for most short range matches, barring those of the benchrest variety. I find reloading to be a PITA and wouldn't do it, if I didn't need to.

 

[M1key]

I have shot XM193 out of a floated barrel Colt SP-1 and probably got close to 2MOA+ with irons and maybe a little better with a 4x scope...but that was a long time ago when my eyes and memory were better.

FWIW, when I make accuracy claims, it is usually what the ammo, rifle, shooter are capable of under ideal conditions. And no, not every single group is going to meet that mark. Mainly because this shooter is the biggest variable.

Tony, I guess we have different standards. It's all good...happy shootin'.

M

 

[1stmarine]

Guys Keep quoting me all you want. I am not playing that game.
Those systems with heavy barrels shoot submoa all day. Not federal "all the time" though and I never said that no matter what you imply. But I know I can rely on that ammo for more than pliking as some try to portray here.

I love firearm enthusiasts. Always so opinionated... but sometimes it gets in the way.

I see this thing now diverting a little by little into something else so I am out of here with this final note for the OP:

- M193 is a good consistent, clean, great brass ammo capable of submoa.
- Is it match ammo? - NO ...I already said this several times.
- Does every barrel love Lake City loads - NO!... I have a few of those too.
- Can produce very respectful groups and submoa - hell yes!

Now lets rewind a bit...

The OP Questions:
1. What is the best group you have gotten using M193 ammo?
- I posted mine some others posted theirs and their BS concerns on my data too.

2. How do I better test my set up...?
System:
- If you only have one barrel/upper work with it.
- Do not need a huge $'s glass but something reliable.
- Muzzle devices preferably well designed and preferably of much less density as the same section of barrel. Not a determined factor but it is not a bad idea to test several.
- 5.56 chamber is the adequate but wylde (or other match) chambers sometimes do better.
- Free Floating handguard is paramount although short heavy barrels are more forgiving.
- Try shots in cancel mode. If you do not have cancel then get a cheap gas block or a brass ring clamp and try single shot (no gass) to see what the barrel alone can do.
- 2 stage trigger might help. not a determining factor. Use a crisp trigger that you like that is for sure.


Setup / operation:
- Well supported. Sandbags both in the front and back or whatever bench rest setup you can find if this is to test your system's accuracy and not your skill.
- Do not start cold bore.
- Start with a dirty barrel. Not a clean one. Not filthy, just wight a few previous shots.
- Do not overheat. Heat throws the groups out.


3. Am I doing about as well as possible with the standard trigger and surplus ammo? (Was really wanting to break the 1 MOA barrier)

MOA barrier is not that hard for an AR. Even 1/2MOA is expected by many. Lesbaers certifies their systems 1/2MOA guaranteed. That is with Corbon and Blackhills ammo though.
Just try a few boxes of all types of ammo and see what your barrel likes best. NATO is going to be very consistent but not match. Corbon, Federal Match, Hornady and Black-hills make very good ammo, some expensive though. Again, find what you barrel likes best. You barrel might shoot better with Priv, FC, PMC, etc.. than Federal and for others is the other way around.

Surplus ammo can be very accurate. I find this with most 90's NATO ammo.
The groups I tested is with ammo I buy 'fresh' every year. I get round 10 boxes which is 9K rounds all from same batch possibly but not sure. I never really check.
Stay away from Russian puffins unless you shoot pumpkins or cans.
They are more expensive in the long run, they are less consistent and pretty dirty. I have a few and save them for those guns and some weekend fun, not to do any serious shooting.

Everything starts and ends with the bullet, hopefully a good one.
Everything else, the firearm, the case, the powder, the scope, the technique, is just a delivery method. ...just like the FEDEX guy. lol!

So ... "do not think like a rifle, think like a bullet".

 

[1stmarine]

1858,
Try some of the system "options" I posted for the op. Always heavy barrel. But do not give up because of federal try other budget packs like FC, Priv, PMC, etc...
With handloads they shoot closer to the 1/2 MOA. only the national match shoots below 1/2 MOA consistently with the 69SMKs, Hornadys 75s and Berger 77grs.
It loooovesss the hornadys 75 with varget and lapua brass. I am actually developing a load for a friend that is going to camp perry.
The key is that handloads are consistent results ALL THE TIME. I can keep the spreads with differences into the single digits. That is key.

The thing with the AR is that when you try 6mm there is no turning back. I have my eye in a couple of Whitley's uppers next.

 

[1stmarine]

M1key,jackpinesavages and others,
Thanks for trying to bring a positive approach to the thread.
Cheers.

 

[1stmarine]

TonyAngel,
Amazing groups you got up there.
Sorry I don't like the "Quote&roll" game.
Cheers.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Thanks for the replies and all the effort. I tried some commercial PMC and got a little smaller group. I'll get out and get a good sampling of ammo and try to get some match ammo also.

Since my original post, I've been back to the range 2 times. I think a new trigger is needed also. it has a mile long creep and is a little stiff. I'm not saying it's all the trigger, but It not helping. Practical accuracy is there. I can shoot and hit small targets (1-2") off the backstop at 150 all day. It's just getting 5 to stay together....

 

[jackpinesavages]

jackpinesavages-From the city of the annual Jack Pine Savage festival? Maybe this year, i will buy a t-shirt?

That's the place brother! Heaven above Hwy 8.

Nice shooting Marine. Get some.

 

[zeke]

"That's the place brother! Heaven above Hwy 8."

jackpinesavages-liked it enough to move here bout 15 years ago, lifetime member of IRPC

 

[HKGuns]

Nice shooting First Marine. I've found the XM193 to be more accurate than me with that platform....So let the doubters doubt. I don't get why it matters so much anyway.

 

[dom1104]

Exactly man, I mean comon....lets be honest, the whole "match ammo" industry is a crock, as is reloading, in the end.

People who buy match ammo, or reload, just cant shoot well enough.

All you need is some LC xm193 and a inexpensive AR and you have sub moa match winning performance.

God bless America.