AR forward grip

[Inebriated]

I welcome those folks to use the stance pictured on page one with a .338 win mag or similar, stock hanging halfway off the bottom of their shoulder, face up against the receiver, and fire one magazine. If they can do that without petechiae on their shoulder skin and a crescent cut over their eye, they are more man than most.

Has nothing to do with being more man, and everything to do with understanding how your body can mechanically absorb recoil.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I welcome those folks to use the stance pictured on page one with a .338 win mag or similar, stock hanging halfway off the bottom of their shoulder, face up against the receiver, and fire one magazine.

Why?

Is there a sudden increase in the use of .338 to do dynamic entries. So what, that particular technique isn't taught outside of the specific job environment it was specifically developed for. You know what, I bet they also don't teach E&E driving techniques to the guys who driving the parking lot shuttle buses at the airport.

 

[henschman]

Different techniques for different situations. Learn them, try them, use what works for what you're doing at the time.

C-clamp for close quarters... better muzzle control at the expense of more muscle input.

Bladed "high power" stance, possibly with shooting sling, for when you need to squeeze every bit of stability you can out of the standing position, because you can't make the shot from any other position.

I frequently use something in between, more like the second picture in the OP, for intermediate range and moderate sized targets.

Even the mag well grip has it's place.

Varying the weapon length, handguard length, weapon type, sight height, and all other variables can drastically change your approach to this as well.

It's absolutely true that there is no "right" way for all situations... though I think there generally is a best way for any one given situation. Just use what works best for you, and keep an open mind about stuff you see other guys use to good effect, even if its different than what you're used to.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Has nothing to do with being more man, and everything to do with understanding how your body can mechanically absorb recoil.

That was tongue-in-cheek; Any fool who took that stance with a rifle producing 40, 50 or more ft/lbs of free recoil is gonna get scope-eyed. Andre the giant himself would regret putting his brow a half inch from the rear hood of a scope attached to a sporting weight medium or large bore magnum class rifle.

Understanding that mechanical absorption includes understanding that your shoulder can and will move backward independently of your head.

Why?

Is there a sudden increase in the use of .338 to do dynamic entries. So what, that particular technique isn't taught outside of the specific job environment it was specifically developed for. You know what, I bet they also don't teach E&E driving techniques to the guys who driving the parking lot shuttle buses at the airport.

:banghead:

I have said as much, and more than once now.

 

[Zach S]

Now, who can tell what is going to happen when either of these two gusy (neither of whom I know, I just borrowed random pictures from the internet) transition to shoot around the left side of a barricade?

I have never thought about blocking the chamber before... But to be honest, I have never paid attention to how high someone's grip is on the magwell.

It may have never occurred to me since I'm wrong handed and picked a good (for me) reference point early on. The lip on the front of the magwell falls between my ring and middle fingers when using the magwell grip (and dropping mags).

I could see it happening to someone using the delta ring for a reference point, but I learned not to do that in the days of dirt cheap M193...

 

[TestPilot]

Originally Posted by ClickClickD'oh View Post

Now, who can tell what is going to happen when either of these two gusy (neither of whom I know, I just borrowed random pictures from the internet) transition to shoot around the left side of a barricade?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3XCMNYMHFM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fouesdpTBXo

As you can see, no problem shooting with either shoulder with the mag grip.

I personally do not use the magwell grip, but ejection is not a huge problem.

 

[leadcounsel]

I appreciate the fact that someone investigated the incident, but drawing conclusions from an administrative overview doesn't explain it well.

NOBODY in the military shoots a 16" barrel. The M4 is 14.5"
Most SBR's in the military use suppressors - where was his?

Therefore there are significant issues with the report that only asking for more details will clear up.

Weird. I was there (4 times) and I remember it differently. Maybe some pictures would help. I was standing right there when this picture was taken in Northern Iraq on our SF Group compound range shooting with operators. And here's a picture of me sitting on top of the Baath Party HQ in downtown Baghdad Iraq with my issued M4.

And you obviously don't understand military investigations either, or the role of a legal adviser who advises the investigator from start to finish, including reviewing work product, evidence, etc. for legal and factual sufficiency before it is completed.

Please don't talk about things for which you clearly don't know. Our guns came in all shapes, flavors and style, including suppressor and non-suppressor models, very long barrels and very short ones.

As for the investigation, go ahead and FOIA it.

 

[gotigers]

I have used the forward thumb over grip for the last 4 years in 3 gun. It is faster and gives better control. In the 3 gun world it is the most used grip for a reason, speed. I do not use it in tactical classes or with my SBR.

My defense grip is still thumb over top pulled tight against a VFG, but with bent elbows, down and tight as i can get them.

Different strokes for different folks. Don't like the grip, don't use it.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3XCMNYMHFM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fouesdpTBXo

Those look suspiciously like AK pattern rifles to me. I might need to get my prescription checked.

 

[TestPilot]

Those look suspiciously like AK pattern rifles to me.

So?

The ejection port location in relation to magazine position is the same.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

So?

The ejection port location in relation to magazine position is the same.

Okay, two things here... both of which are so obvious I'm ashamed to have to point them out.

1) No, the AK and AR are not similar in this area. The geometry, function and construction are all completely different. A high grip on the AK magazine places the hand towards the rear of the ejection port, which means at most you are going to get a painful thump from the bolt handle. A high grip on the AR-15 magwell places the hand at the front of the ejection port, blocking the opening of the dust cover and the ejection of a casing. Also different are the angles between the AKs magazine and body and the AR-15s magwell, where the AK makes it less likely for the hand to creep high on the receiver because of the acute angle in which the magazine meets the receiver. Contrary to the AR-15 on which the D-ring and the forward takedown pin housing naturally lend to "choking up" on the gun.

It really shouldn't be that hard to understand how and why this happens. Just look at the second picture I posted. Tell me where that guys thumb would be if it were on the other side of the receiver.

2) Finding a guy looking super cool and ninja running one type of gun without malfunction means absolutely zero to refute that another person running a completely different type of gun can't induce a malfunction. You might as well have posted a video of the Stig setting lap times for as much relevance as it has.

 

[TestPilot]

Okay, two things here... both of which are so obvious I'm ashamed to have to point them out.

1) No, the AK and AR are not similar in this area. The geometry, function and construction are all completely different. A high grip on the AK magazine places the hand towards the rear of the ejection port, which means at most you are going to get a painful thump from the bolt handle. A high grip on the AR-15 magwell places the hand at the front of the ejection port, blocking the opening of the dust cover and the ejection of a casing. Also different are the angles between the AKs magazine and body and the AR-15s magwell, where the AK makes it less likely for the hand to creep high on the receiver because of the acute angle in which the magazine meets the receiver. Contrary to the AR-15 on which the D-ring and the forward takedown pin housing naturally lend to "choking up" on the gun.

It really shouldn't be that hard to understand how and why this happens. Just look at the second picture I posted. Tell me where that guys thumb would be if it were on the other side of the receiver.

2) Finding a guy looking super cool and ninja running one type of gun without malfunction means absolutely zero to refute that another person running a completely different type of gun can't induce a malfunction. You might as well have posted a video of the Stig setting lap times for as much relevance as it has.

Okay, two things here... both of which should be obvious to anyone who actually shot an AR-15 type, and I am not ashamed to point out.

Dust cover just needs to clear the path of ejection, not completely flipped down.

What you say is only a problem if the shooter decides to grip high and stick the thumb upwards.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

What you say is only a problem if the shooter decides to grip high and stick the thumb upwards.

So, you're admitting that it can be a problem and were just trolling?

Thanks.

Good night.

 

[Warp]

So, you're admitting that it can be a problem and were just trolling?

Thanks.

Good night.

A lot of things 'can' be a problem if they are done the wrong way.

 

[Inebriated]

So, you're admitting that it can be a problem and were just trolling?

Thanks.

Good night.

That's the same thing as saying that a semi-auto with a reciprocating slide can be an issue if I put my thumb right behind it.

Simple solution: Don't put your thumb there.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

A lot of things 'can' be a problem if they are done the wrong way.

Well, yes, but how many people know about this "wrong way"? Heck, I've seen the magwell grip so over pronounced that the shooter has his thumb and index finger on the D-ring and only the bottom three fingers on the magwell. Seriously, anyone with an AR-15 nearby go pick it up and do that with your right hand.

That's the same thing as saying that a semi-auto with a reciprocating slide can be an issue if I put my thumb right behind it.

Interesting analogy, considering that we all know it's a problem yet still run into people that want to do it all the time. With the rifle, I guarantee you that most people don't know it's a problem because most people never shoot their rifle off their left shoulder. To further expound on the analogy and highlight the problem with the rifle grip, the thumb behind the slide issue is largely self correcting the first time the trigger is pulled. The shooter generally learns not to do that again. With the rifle, since nothing happens when shooting right handed the behavior only gets reinforced and built into habit over potentially hundreds or thousands of rounds. The error only occurs when the rifle is shot left handed... which may be never for many shooters.

Anyone who trains or practices to use an AR with even the thought that they might need to shoot it for real points on day should be aware of this particular failing of this particular grip and train to avoid it. The failing that is, not necessarily the grip.

Take a look next time on the range and you see someone shooting with the magwell grip. Check their hand placement. If it's a right handed shooter, I give you better than even odds he'd block the ejection port if he was doing it left handed.