AR15 rivals worth checking out?

[CapnMac]

Are there guns that aren't really available on the general market (SA80, G36, FAMAS, etc.) that might be able to dethrone the AR if there was consumer versions available?

It's an intersting question. And one that come into considerable debate (and huge internet flamewars).

But, if we look at the militaries not using the AR-15/M-16/M-4 platform, we can (probably) generalize.
The SA-80--a car designed by lathe-makers; currently in a fourth rebuild, replaced by M-16/M-4 in specialist units.
The FAMAS, really good kit, once it used a STANAG magazine; lousy for optics. After a long run, being replaced by M-16.

Only other true "competitor" would be the AR-18 variants, and the only one of those still in use is the Korean Daewoo.

Everything else is pretty much some variant of AK. And, that's a separate flamewar of its own. And AR ergonomics with straight-in magazine insertion and a bolt hold open are a distinct advantage (to me, at least) over rock-n-lock mags, no hold open, and off-hand safety. Oh, and inherently easier optics installation.

Which really only leaves the Mini-14/AC556, and that really was never meant to be a military rifle (a security rifle, perhaps).

It's an excellently toothsome debate (other than the knuckle-dragginh crayon-eater flamewarriors, obviously [])

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Does the AR have a rival in today's market? As near as I can tell, it is pretty much peerless.

A big plus for the AR is of course the economy and the modularity. You can get a decent rifle from PSA for $400 and change anything on it to meet your needs because the rifle is easy to work on and the market is expansive. Nothing else on the market competes with it in this regard. Plenty of other options have attempted to offer the modularity of the AR, but have failed. The XCR, FN SCAR, the ACR, and the SIG MCX have all been marketed as modular carbines but have failed to gain support of the AR because they have failed to support their designs. Caliber conversions end up being scarce, and expensive when found, and in the end, quick change barrels don't add a lot of utility over switching out an upper receiver on an AR. And that is what appeals to a lot of people with the AR design. You just have options with the AR that you don't have anywhere else. From braced pistols and pistol caliber carbines to long range precision rifles, in a myriad of calibers and configurations, with the AR, your imagination is truly the only limit. And while you can go super expensive, the market is such that rifles and parts are cheap right now, and the design is such that someone with a bench and a few tools can build or modify at their heart's content in their own garage or basement. Very little else on the market is as approachable in this regard as the AR.

As an example; you can pay $3000 for a FN17S, then dump another $1500 into improved forearms and buttstocks, triggers and controls, then pay $40 for a magazine, or you can build an Aero Precision M5 with the furniture you want for $1100, pay $20 a magazine, and have a rifle that is functionally identical to the 17s in 99.99% of any situations you're going to face, even in the Thunderdome. If you want to add barrel length or a heavier barrel or change calibers on the FN, your options are limited, scarce, and expensive. Spare barrel assemblies run over $1100 in Brownells, and you're limited to 5.56 and 7.62 NATO in a few different lengths. You can 1/2 as much building a pretty good complete upper receiver in any number of different barrel lengths and configurations--6.5 Creed, .500 Auto Max, .338 Federal--whatever you want. Or you can spend 1/4 as much on a new barrel for your existing rifle and install it yourself while watching cartoons with your kids.

It used to be the little poodle shooter that crapped where it ate, but since I've owned ARs, they've really grown on me. My ARs have been the most reliable, easy to own and operate firearms in my collection. I use little else anymore. Whatever I need done, from hunting to defense, my ARs will accommodate in a platform that is accurate, comfortable, and simply fun to use. The AR is America's Rifle. Americans own over 15 million ARs, making it the most popular rifle design in the US. It has no peers and no rivals. It is alone at the top of the heap because it does things no other rifle does at a price that makes it accessible to working men.

And now for the obligatory gun porn, I present, my ARs. There are many like it, but these ones are mine.
Colt 6960CCU with SIG Romeo 7 and Juliet 4 magnifier on FTS, and its big brother Aero Precision M5 with Trijicon TA-11J ACOG.

 

[ttarp]

It amuses me to see folks talk down on the SA80 series of rifles, its like they only read half the story and don't realize it pretty much mirrors the ARs transition from early teething issues to reliable front line rifle.

The AR is a good design, reliable, accurate, and maybe not exactly modular in the sense that an AUG might be considered, but still very easy to reconfigure to pretty much any role within reason. But ARs wouldn't be dominating the market like they are now if they cost $1,800 and up like the ACR, AUG, BREN, SCAR, and well pretty much most of the other rifles in its class. It would still probably be the most popular rifle in that scenario, just not exclusively so, the way it is now.

I overcame a reputation based dislike of the AR some time ago, now with some experience and more of an open mind, I realize its merits. But the way some folks talk of ARs I wouldn't be surprised if they had shrines in their homes to worship at, call me a heathen, but I still prefer other designs for various reasons.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

The Bren 805 is a nice rifle, but at 8.5 lbs it’s a little heavy. And then there’s that hefty price tag that comes in around $2000.

Yeah, it's pretty heavy and kind of expensive. I got a really great deal on mine, around $1300 new at the time. I won't pretend it's a viable replacement for an AR for the obvious reasons; price, availability of accessories, parts, etc. I just really wanted one so I splurged and bought it! It's an awesome gun! The trigger is outstanding for a mil-type rifle and it's fun to shoot. Kind of neat just for a change of pace.

 

[AlexanderA]

Only other true "competitor" would be the AR-18 variants, and the only one of those still in use is the Korean Daewoo.

I disagree that the Daewoo is an AR-18 variant. The Daewoo is a hybrid of the M16, the AK, and the FAL. I don't think that the AR-18 had any input into its design. The forged receiver definitely sets it apart from the stamped-and-welded AR-18. I have both a Daewoo and a couple of AR-180's, and the Daewoo is as rugged as the AR-180 is fragile. My biggest regret is that I didn't buy more Daewoo's when they were readily available.

 

[CapnMac]

I disagree that the Daewoo is an AR-18 variant

I have this memory--which could be faulty--that the original Daewoo was a lucense copy of the Singapore AR-18.

Mind, I clean forgot all the H&K variants in 5.56nato--but, that may be from my being in the "swear at" rather then the "swear by" camp for those. No knock on the engineering, they are built like Swiss watches, but the ergo is horrible. Rock-n-lock magazine, no bolt hold open, have to break grip to cycle the bolt handle.

Ergo is not a huge consideration for rifle squad/section tactics--8-10 guys are not going to all run out at the same time, and a reliable 5kg rifle might make sense to people at Army level planning. But, as a personal item, just you and a rifle, it can matter. When the largest body movement is getting a new magazine, and all the other actions are finger-presses , where the movements are measured in millimeters rather than centimeters (or decimeters), and with a 2.5-2.75kg weapon, it can make a serious difference.

There are reasons the US military is still fielding the M-16 platform after 50 years, even with all the arguments about caliber.

 

[marksman13]

Does the AR have a rival in today's market? As near as I can tell, it is pretty much peerless.

A big plus for the AR is of course the economy and the modularity. You can get a decent rifle from PSA for $400 and change anything on it to meet your needs because the rifle is easy to work on and the market is expansive. Nothing else on the market competes with it in this regard. Plenty of other options have attempted to offer the modularity of the AR, but have failed. The XCR, FN SCAR, the ACR, and the SIG MCX have all been marketed as modular carbines but have failed to gain support of the AR because they have failed to support their designs. Caliber conversions end up being scarce, and expensive when found, and in the end, quick change barrels don't add a lot of utility over switching out an upper receiver on an AR. And that is what appeals to a lot of people with the AR design. You just have options with the AR that you don't have anywhere else. From braced pistols and pistol caliber carbines to long range precision rifles, in a myriad of calibers and configurations, with the AR, your imagination is truly the only limit. And while you can go super expensive, the market is such that rifles and parts are cheap right now, and the design is such that someone with a bench and a few tools can build or modify at their heart's content in their own garage or basement. Very little else on the market is as approachable in this regard as the AR.

As an example; you can pay $3000 for a FN17S, then dump another $1500 into improved forearms and buttstocks, triggers and controls, then pay $40 for a magazine, or you can build an Aero Precision M5 with the furniture you want for $1100, pay $20 a magazine, and have a rifle that is functionally identical to the 17s in 99.99% of any situations you're going to face, even in the Thunderdome. If you want to add barrel length or a heavier barrel or change calibers on the FN, your options are limited, scarce, and expensive. Spare barrel assemblies run over $1100 in Brownells, and you're limited to 5.56 and 7.62 NATO in a few different lengths. You can 1/2 as much building a pretty good complete upper receiver in any number of different barrel lengths and configurations--6.5 Creed, .500 Auto Max, .338 Federal--whatever you want. Or you can spend 1/4 as much on a new barrel for your existing rifle and install it yourself while watching cartoons with your kids.

It used to be the little poodle shooter that crapped where it ate, but since I've owned ARs, they've really grown on me. My ARs have been the most reliable, easy to own and operate firearms in my collection. I use little else anymore. Whatever I need done, from hunting to defense, my ARs will accommodate in a platform that is accurate, comfortable, and simply fun to use. The AR is America's Rifle. Americans own over 15 million ARs, making it the most popular rifle design in the US. It has no peers and no rivals. It is alone at the top of the heap because it does things no other rifle does at a price that makes it accessible to working men.

And now for the obligatory gun porn, I present, my ARs. There are many like it, but these ones are mine.
Colt 6960CCU with SIG Romeo 7 and Juliet 4 magnifier on FTS, and its big brother Aero Precision M5 with Trijicon TA-11J ACOG.
View attachment 857767
View attachment 857768

Biggest plus for my SCAR17 over my 308/6.5 CM ARs is weight. That weight is a huge factor when we pig hunt at night. Slogging hundreds of yards through a muddy bean field in the dark on a Mississippi July night taxes the human body and that’s when the weight is most noticeable. Is it worth the extra money? Obviously it was for me, but I got a steal on my SCAR. I think I paid $1800 for the rifle in nearly new condition w/ five mags and a ton of other extras. Would I have spent the $4K that it should have been priced? Nope.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Biggest plus for my SCAR17 over my 308/6.5 CM ARs is weight. That weight is a huge factor when we pig hunt at night. Slogging hundreds of yards through a muddy bean field in the dark on a Mississippi July night taxes the human body and that’s when the weight is most noticeable. Is it worth the extra money? Obviously it was for me, but I got a steal on my SCAR. I think I paid $1800 for the rifle in nearly new condition w/ five mags and a ton of other extras. Would I have spent the $4K that it should have been priced? Nope.

You can find AR10s lighter than the 17s. DPMS has models starting in the 7.25 pound range, including a Hunter model with a 20 inch barrel advertised at 7.76 pounds.
http://dpms-gii.com/full.html#configurations

The 17s has a folding stock, and its short piston operation may work with a suppressor marginally better than a DGI AR10. But that is it. You can probably buy a piston kit and/or adjustable gas block for the AR for a few hundred bucks. So then you're still stuck trying to justify spending $3000 on a folding stock. And I like the FN. The 17S would be one of the first purchases I made if I won the lottery. But suddenly being stupid rich is the only thing that would make the rifle worth the price FN is asking. In terms of function, the rifle doesn't do anything an AR10 costing 1/3 as much won't do just as well.

 

[marksman13]

You can find AR10s lighter than the 17s. DPMS has models starting in the 7.25 pound range, including a Hunter model with a 20 inch barrel advertised at 7.76 pounds.
http://dpms-gii.com/full.html#configurations

The 17s has a folding stock, and its short piston operation may work with a suppressor marginally better than a DGI AR10. But that is it. You can probably buy a piston kit and/or adjustable gas block for the AR for a few hundred bucks. So then you're still stuck trying to justify spending $3000 on a folding stock. And I like the FN. The 17S would be one of the first purchases I made if I won the lottery. But suddenly being stupid rich is the only thing that would make the rifle worth the price FN is asking. In terms of function, the rifle doesn't do anything an AR10 costing 1/3 as much won't do just as well.

The SCAR is night and day more reliable than any DI rifle I have owned when suppressed. It was also head an shoulders better than the Adams Arms piston driven 308 AR I owned. We’re talking about not even in the same league. It’s not a marginal difference in my experience. Honestly, that’s my favorite aspect of the SCAR.

I don’t really care about the folding stock. I replaced the Ugg boot with a KDG stock and replaced the stock trigger with a Geissele Super SCAR trigger. I hung an extended rail from Midwest Ind off the front too. With the KDG stock and rail I’m 11 oz heavier than that Adams Arms rifle which with extremely light, but the SCAR feels lighter and handles better.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I know I'm late to the party but....

I started shooting rifles that were not the AR because I "thought" I didn't like them... I had SKS's, AK's, even a KelTec SU-16... Was shopping for FAL, HK G3 clones, galil, etc.

But then I built (assembled) my first AR. And after that, I gained such an appreciation for the manufacturing and engineering behind it. The ergonomics and performance outdid all the others.

Long story short, the AR is excellent and the cheapest option.

Ya can't go wrong.