Are Glocks really drop safe? Even in the summer?
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Bobson
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Can't believe there's so much focus in this thread on drop safety. Countless numbers of people have dropped Glocks in all sorts of ridiculous torture tests. It's a drop-safe gun; whether that's a result of the "trigger safety" or anything else really doesn't matter.
The more important issue, IMO, is the -40 to 122 degrees. What happens at 125 or 130 degrees that makes the gun unsafe, or makes it fail to function properly?
-40C to +50C makes for nice round numbers. Well, that's one hypothesis, but I don't buy it. Why wouldn't they go higher? While not exactly common, it isn't unheard of to hit 120 degrees in many places, during Summer. Why not go up to, say, 60-65C (140-149F)?
Surely any company would realize the value in saying "our product will function in any temperature anywhere on the planet, unless you're inside a volcano," over "our gun will function as long as you don't live in Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, or Texas."
And I'm not trying to tear the gun down, here. I'm a Glock fan. This just seems really weird to me.
The more important issue, IMO, is the -40 to 122 degrees. What happens at 125 or 130 degrees that makes the gun unsafe, or makes it fail to function properly?
-40C to +50C makes for nice round numbers. Well, that's one hypothesis, but I don't buy it. Why wouldn't they go higher? While not exactly common, it isn't unheard of to hit 120 degrees in many places, during Summer. Why not go up to, say, 60-65C (140-149F)?
Surely any company would realize the value in saying "our product will function in any temperature anywhere on the planet, unless you're inside a volcano," over "our gun will function as long as you don't live in Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, or Texas."
And I'm not trying to tear the gun down, here. I'm a Glock fan. This just seems really weird to me.
It matters if you want to understand how the gun might fail in extreme temperatures.
The firing pin safety is in the slide, so if the slide separates from the frame, the slide is still totally drop safe.
The only way to get a Glock to dropfire through heat failure of plastic parts is if the trigger safety fails. I suppose the trigger safety could melt to where it will be sucked clean through the hole in the frame without clumping/lodging, and yet the frame and other plastic parts of the trigger bar et al are still not complete goo, if exposed to extremely high temps for a short period of time.
But I would think cold temps would be more dangerous, because the trigger safety might more easily shear off, leaving the rest of the gun to still operate normally.
Well, if the temperature reaches the point where the plastic is too soft/weak, I suppose the frame rails might be the first thing to go. So perhaps the slide flying off the frame would be one of the first failures. Or perhaps cracks in the frame. Or maybe the ejector would fall off and the gun would jam. Or the locking block pins could go oval and the locking block could push up and rub on the slide, causing stoppages. Or.. well, a lot of things could go wrong with the gun, while you're shooting it with your asbestos glove.
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4thPointOfContact
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Okay, let's play that....
What is the tested temperature range that a M1911A1 is supposed to operate at?
What is the tested temperature range that a M4A1 is supposed to operate at?
What about an M14, FAL, H&K G3, or AKM?
The melting point of Polyamide resin (Glock frames are about 15% glass fiber and the rest polyamide) is about 450F, but the material will begin to weaken about 180 degrees below this (270-ish). See "Nylon 6" for further information.
Are those temperatures higher or lower than the tested temperature of the Glock? Significantly higher or lower?
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As I recall, the structural integrity of the material is unaffected under 260 degrees F. If it's above that temperature, one would be well advised to allow it to cool somewhat before using it. Both because of the potential for damage to the gun and the fact that 260 degrees F is well above the boiling point of water and would definitely be hot enough cause injury to a person who tried to pick it up without gloves.
By the way, the Glock frame material isn't a particularly exotic material and those numbers likely apply to any number of polymer-framed handguns.
Bobson
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If the Glock frame doesn't begin to weaken until 270 degrees, why would they publish the top end safe operating range to be 122?
I don't know. I also don't understand how this is relevant.
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barnbwt
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I'll bet it's A) a lube issue they are seeking to absolve themselves of, and B) an ammunition issue, since toasty ammunition starts running at higher pressures rapidly, and C) the temp of 122 is well beyond anything a group procures handguns to deal with, without running their own independent tests (i.e. the Saudis do their own tests for darn near everything, due to the heat as well as sand that the rest of the planet thankfully doesn't force itself to live with)
Why are folks so quick to assume the frame is the limiting factor, given the thermal material properties quoted above? Because it's polymer?
TCB
Bobson
Member
Well... yeah. For me, at least. I mean, I like Glocks. I've owned them and am buying another. I've never had a problem with one. I've never heard of a Glock melting under anything resembling normal use. But then, before this thread, I never heard of the 122 degree upper limit, either.
lol guys, nothing is going to melt at a mere 122*
That's nothing. Most people's threshold of pain (I'm talking...temperature up to which they can handle holding their finger too if you dare them, also without injury of course) is at least 140*F. Anybody that has used a hair dryer or heat gun to apply grips (like talon grips) to a polymer pistol can probably attest that 122* isn't doing crap to the gun.
Or somebody who left a gun in the glovebox in the sun in Phoenix during the summer...or had one in the middle east in the sun or an enclosed space.
That's nothing. Most people's threshold of pain (I'm talking...temperature up to which they can handle holding their finger too if you dare them, also without injury of course) is at least 140*F. Anybody that has used a hair dryer or heat gun to apply grips (like talon grips) to a polymer pistol can probably attest that 122* isn't doing crap to the gun.
Or somebody who left a gun in the glovebox in the sun in Phoenix during the summer...or had one in the middle east in the sun or an enclosed space.
4thPointOfContact
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Bobson said:
1) You are misunderstanding what has been said; it's not that the top end safe operating range is 122F, it's that it's been tested to continue operating at that temperature (and probably well above).
2) The relevancy is that the Glock has been tested and because you can see a number you seem to be worried about any number above that. The others don't have a number and could be unsafe at anything above a warm summer day (but you don't know)
3) The simple truth is that any modern military tests its equipment at both low temperature and high temperature. Those temperatures are probably in the 90th percentile range. Everything is a compromise, if the cost to add an extra -10 degrees F doubled the cost, would it be economically prudent?
You could equate it with the efficacy of the M4A1 compared to an M16-series, it loses 40 meters in range (550 v 500) but is more compact which is useful when 80% of contacts are 300 meters or less (even in the desert).
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I think I could reasonably expect any Glock, or any other plastic pistol to continue to operate well above the highest temperature I could continue to survive in.
Without a space suit at least.
Melting plastic pistol frames in typical clothing?
You're already dead and your hairs on fire!!
Ever consider how hot the cheap plastic dashboard in your car gets on a hot summer day??
rc
Without a space suit at least.
Melting plastic pistol frames in typical clothing?
You're already dead and your hairs on fire!!
Ever consider how hot the cheap plastic dashboard in your car gets on a hot summer day??
rc
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danez71
Member
Since some seem to be defending something it doesn't say, lets look at what it says again.
This isn't a lube issue unless you believe they purposely choose the worst lube available.
The lube isn't what makes a Glock 'functional' anyways.
And Glock didn't say "remains firm up to 122F
".... this isn't a melting issue.I'm thinking it might be related to expansion under heat. Maybe in some odd happenstance, the materials swell and something might not swing/move/slide properly and something may not function/reset reliably.
Or, also very possible.... that copper colored shipping preservative stuff doesn't like 123F+...????
The use of fahrenheit indicates the discussion relates to the USA, also known as the Transcendent Empire of Lawyeristan - so apply a little critical thinking here. Are glocks festooned with product safety warnings indicating they are not safe for use at temperatures likely to be encountered by living humans? Do buyers have to sign a 75-page disclaimer acknowledging that any use in hot sunny place is entirely at their own risk? Is there a thermometer molded into the top of slide with the indicator crossing a glow-in-the-dark "DANGER OF CATASTROPHIC FAILURE DO NOT USE" warning at 122F? Have you heard of class action lawsuits from the sweaty states about melting Glocks? Is Facebook full of "ZOMG Glock left in car explodes and kills 47 babies LIEK TO SHARE!!!?
Since the answer is no, I think we can assume the "top end safe operating temperature" is very substantially above 122c.
The 122F temperature probably translates to something like "at least eleventy squajillion duty cycles at 50 celsius using NATO standardised test protocol where 5% or greater of cycles at each increment are at 500% of normal temperature and 10% or greater cycles performed at 250% of test temperature with no less than ten elevated temperature sequences and no fewer than 5,000 rounds fired at normal temperature between each heating cycle and using lubricants meeting NATO spec whateverblah results in a unit failure rate of 0.02% or less".
Which takes up a lot of space and is super boring, when (almost) everyone will very sensibly just assume that a firearm is not going to melt unless you do something extreme to it.
danez71
Member
^^^
I reject that theory.
If it were true, they would simply state something like:
"Meets XYZ Spec 88243-C"
Instead of:
"functional at temperatures from -40° to 122° Fahrenheit."
If nothing else, the 1st sounds potentially impressive.
The 2nd sounds only like they're notifying you of a limitation.
I reject that theory.
If it were true, they would simply state something like:
"Meets XYZ Spec 88243-C"
Instead of:
"functional at temperatures from -40° to 122° Fahrenheit."
If nothing else, the 1st sounds potentially impressive.
The 2nd sounds only like they're notifying you of a limitation.
I think we've covered a lot of ground here, 1) how the gun would function without a part that is part of the design and 2) how the frame won't melt at the temperature it is speced for...
...without any real increase in knowledge.
It has gone on for 3 pages now, lets move on to another subject and leave this up for folks who might be interested in referring back to it.
...without any real increase in knowledge.
It has gone on for 3 pages now, lets move on to another subject and leave this up for folks who might be interested in referring back to it.
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