Are Higher priced progressives really that much better?

[REL1203]

I started out for the first year with a Lee Classic Turret, i only intended to reload for Rifle. Soon, i realized how much I like reloading, and vowed to never buy factory ammo any more, and only shoot my own reloads once my big stock pile of factory ammo was gone. Last month, i bought a Hornady Lock-n-Load AP, and so far I have only loaded 357mag and 45acp with it (waiting for my order of quick change powder dies to come in), and outside of one small issue I am having with the EZJect, I am very happy with the press. My first hour of loading 357, i easily did 300 (5 rounds a minute), and its pretty fantastic. I did a 10minute speed loading session, where i went as fast as I could, but still made sure the powder levels looked right, and I got up to 525rounds an hour, but no chance I could maintain that speed for to much more than 10min without a casefeeder (which I have on order as well).... I love the Lee Classic Turret, but with handgun ammo, its just kinda painful to need to sit for 5+ hours to get all your ammo done. My suggestion would be buy a progressive for handgun, down the road you will be greatful.

 

[OldStumps]

I just went through this exercise and bought a Lee 1000. In all the reviews I've seen there needs to be some degree of setup/alignment to get any of them to work. I think that you need to see what will change as you move from one caliber to another (shell plate, shell feed, etc.) A dedicated progressive is going to be the best way to go. I will load primarily .40 and do most everything else on a Classic Turret (3 hole) or my Herters #3 single stage. I also resize and deprime and then clean cases. So my 3 hole progressive is setup to charge/bell, seat and then crimp. I don't have priming issues, which is a problem with the Lee 1000 more than others it seems.

My Lee 1000 was on sale at Midway for $149. Came with dies for .40 and shell plate and their pro powder disk. With the collator for the shell feeder I'm at $177 invested, including shipping. Compared to $400 for the LNL and $500 for the Dillon, I can buy a lot of powder and lead. In fact I just added the Classic Turret 3 hole and more turrets so if I ever move to another caliber on the progressive I have them and only need the shell plates. I will be shooting enough .40 that I think it a good idea to go progressive over either the turret or a single stage.

 

[CMC]

For handgun only I would reccomend the Dillon Square deal.
I owned mine for 20 years and not a problem with it , It takes about 10 minutes to set up and i can do easy about 2 to 300 rounds an hour.
Had a lee progressive before that and it was not worth a darn.

 

[jmorris]

I have two SD's that are 25+ years old and still load good ammo. They cost +-$130 back then, they cost so much these days I would save up a little more and start with a base 650.

 

[nyc71]

I started with a Lee kit but it got old. I don't have a lot of time because my kids practice/games I felt the need to invest in a progressive. I narrowed it down between the 550 & the LnL AP, I went with the latter because you get same/similar capability to 650. Ironically I end up with a 550 also because a friend of mine didn't have a need for it. All he wanted was 1,100 factory rounds. The 550 was missing the priming system, handle, & spent primer cup. It did include 357 Dillon dies. I sent the unit back to Dillon & it came back like new. Instead of 1 now I have 2 progressive bullet making machines & a lot more time to spend with the family.



"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"- Benjamin Franklin

 

[LiveLife]

Higher priced progressives really that much better?

Yes and no.

I was taught to reload on both Dillon 550 and Lee Pro 1000 for pistol match shooting. The mentor who taught me to reload had me load my match loads on both and range test them side-by-side. The shot groups were comparable.

We discussed the pro's and con's of each press before I made my purchase:

Dillon 550:
Pros - It's a Dillon with life-time warranty. 4 stations. Looks very cool on your bench with the blue cover. Other Dillon match shooters will embrace you with open arms for having made the "right" decision.
Cons - Manual index, manual case feed, primers needed to be flipped on the tray and picked up one-by-one into the primer tube, more costly and slower caliber change, powder throw required powder charge weight verification every 50-100 rounds for "charge drift"

Lee Pro 1000:
Pros - Auto index, auto case feed, primer trays are faster/easier to reload, much lower cost and faster caliber change, Pro Auto Disk did not require re-verification of powder charge weight after initial several charge weights were verified.
Cons - It's a Lee with limited warranty. 3 stations. Gravity based primer feed tube needs to be watched to make sure the next primer drops into station. Other match shooters will ask, "Really, you load on a Lee Pro 1000? Why?" Dillon match shooters will give you "sympathy" hugs.


I ended up buying the Pro 1000 because I liked the auto index/case feeder option. The small primer feed attachment worked about 95% of the time for me, but I separately resize/deprime and hand primed match cases, so it was not an issue for me (BTW, large primer worked 100% for me as long as the feed tube was kept full). Many talked of Pro 1000 needing "constant tinkering" but my extent of "tinkering" for each reloading session is cleaning/lubing of metal contact parts, checking shell plate timing, checking case feed and right disk hole / powder charge weight verification.

Over the years, I have used other progressive presses and we even did comparison range tests of our match ammo and my loads were comparable, if not more accurate - holes on target speak volumes.


"Higher priced progressives really that much better?"
Knowing what I know now, I would generally answer by saying the higher priced progressives are more "heavily" built than Pro 1000. Many complain about "jerky-ness" of the Pro 1000. When I am reloading with resized/primed cases, I remove the primer feed attachment with rod that rides the ridges on one of the frame tubes that causes "jerky" clicks to drop primers into the feed tube. When other match shooters loaded on my Pro 1000, they commented how "smooth" the action was without the feed attachment rod. I can produce 450+/hour and 650+/hour with resized/primed cases.

I have considered buying a Dillon 1050 or more recently Hornady AP LNL, but my wife kept asking me, "Will they produce more accurate match loads?" Each time, I have to tell her no.

Instead, I am thinking about setting up dedicated caliber stations (one setup for 45ACP and the other for 9mm/40S&W as they share the same shell plate and small primer feed tube).

 

[Mac Attack]

I used to be green but went blue last year.

I loaded on a RCBS rockchucker for about a month then added a RCBS piggyback II progressive unit. I used that set up for 20 years before I broke down and bought my Dillon 650. The 650 is a loading machine and I can load a months worth of shooting in a couple of hours. I still use my rockchucker when I want more precise loads or when I load blackpowder loads.

I would invest into the Hornady LNL, Dillon or RCBS before I would buy a Lee. I just find the Lee to not be as sturdy as the aforementioned loaders.

 

[rfwobbly]

Fatty -
I think you're going the right way and asking the right questions.

• In reloading you get what you pay for. Sometimes the lower priced presses can match the speed, but they can't match the features. And those features are what give you the exact powder dumps, flawless primer feeding, smooth handle operation, etc that allow you to load 1000-5000 rounds without a single adjustment.

• In your shoes I would look at these presses: Dillon Square Deal, Dillon 550, Hornady LNL AP, RCBS 2000, and the Lee Load Master. You can see them all equally and fairly compared by clicking these words right here.

• Keep your old RCBS. The one truth about the progressives is that you still need a single stage hanging around for odd jobs.

• Don't be too quick to make up your mind. You could swap your RCBS for a Hornady or Lyman single stage and use 99% of your existing equipment. However, on a progressive none of the shell holders, die holders, powder measures, and other press accessories will work on other brands. Where you loose your money is on the accessories when/if you change progressives.

• Most responders are simply going to tell you what they use. Try to find the ones that have used several brands.

Hope this helps!

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

Here is a pretty good comparison between progressive presses from Dillon, Hornady and Lee:

http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf

Andy

 

[noylj]

I have reloaded on the little "Lee Reloading Press," a RockChucker, and a Forster Co-Ax single-stage presses.
The Forster is a joy to use but...they all produced equally accurate ammunition. The little Lee press was the least pleasant to use, but the ammunition it produced was just as good in terms of run-out and accuracy.
I then loaded on a Hornady Pro-7, upgraded to a ProJector 7, then to a L-N-L. I never had any problems with the presses and gave my son my L-N-L. None of these produced ammunition that was better than the single-stages, but they sure produced equally good ammunition much faster. however, I do not consider any progressive press as ideal for bottleneck cases--but they certainly will produce a lot of loads for a rifle fast, if you don't have to stop and check each case for case length or other case prep operations.
I am currently loading on several 1050s. Great press.
However, if I was loading for a super-accurate rifle, I would drop back to a single stage press and might even use my little Lee press.
Presses are worth the money in relation to how fast they can produce rounds and how easy/pleasurable they are to use.

 

[morrow]

Wow, lots of bad info in this thread. It amuses me how bias people are trying to make the press they purchased and are stuck with sound good. "each has pros and cons" --- not true, barely at all.

Here's the bare facts when it comes to progressives that fit your round per month situation:
Lee 1000: total joke, so many shortfalls it's not even funny. Big priming issues too. You can basically only use 4 of the 5 stations on top of that. Inexpensive
RCBS 2000: a little better. the huge shortfall is no casefeeder. Poor priming system unless you buy pre-filled strips, if not, have fun loading those primer strips! Inexpensive but moreso than a Lee 1000. Lifetime warranty
Dillon rl550b: Lacks auto-index, only 4 stations. mid-ranged price wise, a little more than RCBS. Lifetime warranty
Dillon xl650: Your best option for that round/month number. A few little quirks to work out (shell plate adjustment, bearing mod) but less to work out than the other presses. Caliber changes can be expensive and quick, or cheap and longer. Casefeeder! Expensive progressive, lifetime warranty.
Hornady LNL AP: Big supply issues right now by Hornady, people are even getting incomplete presses shipped to them saying "call customer support to get X item". Most pieces are steel/iron with no plating or paint, so requires constant dry lubing to fight rust. Several quirks to work out including priming problems and pawl adjustments. Casefeeder! Like the xl650 caliber changes can be quick and expensive, or cheap and longer. It's under warranty but Hornady WILL abandon all support for it once it's replaced by a newer press, so be warned. Expensive progressive.

 

[LiveLife]

Lee 1000: total joke, so many shortfalls it's not even funny. Big priming issues too. You can basically only use 4 of the 5 stations on top of that.

Lee Load Master has 5 stations, Turret press has 4 stations but Pro 1000 has only 3 stations ... if you are going to put down a press, you gotta do it right.

I took the OP not as whether which press was the best, but what features made the higher priced progressives better and listed them based on my experience.


We had this same discussion numerous times at the range and ultimately did a side-by-side reloading comparison using various progressive presses and same components/dimensions (bullets, primers, powder, charge weight, OAL, taper crimp, etc.). We went to each other's houses/reloading rooms to verify powder charge weight accuracy, OAL, taper crimp, etc.

What we found was that some of the higher priced progressives drifted powder charge weights over several hundred rounds reloaded (requiring powder charge weight check every 50-100 rounds) but the Pro 1000/Pro Auto Disk did not as it uses a fixed volumetric chamber to dispense powder. Once we loaded our 1000 rounds, we headed to the range for a comparison shoot. Rounds from Pro 1000 not only matched the accuracy from other presses, but exceeded some of them. We concluded that drifting of powder charge weight to be the primary cause.


Progressive press, like a single stage O-ring press, is simply a tool that goes up and down but differs because it turns the shell plate at the same time. Like what my wife asked me, I would ask the same question of, "But will it produce more accurate match rounds?" And that's why I answered initially with a "Yes and no"

I will agree that Pro 1000 is not for everyone, but even many Dillon fans will say the same about the 1050.

 

[amlevin]

When making the jump to a progressive those that opt for the "cheapie" often wish they'd just gone for the "Premium". Rarely do those that went first class regret their choice. Combine the quality of the machine with continued super reliable operation and it makes the premium progressive worth the extra bucks.

 

[joed]

1.) The primer punches press directly on the cast aluminum frame. They have a tendency to put a wear spot in the frame. I worry about primer seating depths in the long run. From an engineering aspect this was a huge disappointment as the rest of the press is fantastic from an engineering standpoint. It wouldn't take much for them to make an insert that goes in this place made of a harder material to prevent this wear.

Interesting, you're the first to mention this fact. A few friends own LnL's and have a lot of priming issues with theirs. Both don't prime on the press. I've owned only Dillon for over 10 years with only minor complaints.

The following Dillon presses are what I have owned and I've included my opinions on them.

The 550 needs one more station for a powder check die in my opinion. This is the only reason I sold the press. But it loaded all the ammo I ever needed. Unfortunately the powder measure disliked Unique, on the third squib I sold the press and ordered a 650.

The 650 is a great press with one tiny flaw, I don't like the priming system. If you miss a case the primer is also rejected. You get used to this though and work around it.

1050, I picked one up used for $800 a few years ago. It's not the Super but an older model that won't accept rifle cartridges longer then .308. No complaints here, this press can run faster then I can push it. I routinely see 1200 rounds an hour on larger cases. Usually my arm gives out after an hour. This is the best press I've ever used.

 

[EddieNFL]

Unfortunately the powder measure disliked Unique, on the third squib I sold the press and ordered a 650.

My 550 and 650 have identical powder measures.

 

[morrow]

The 550 needs one more station for a powder check die in my opinion. This is the only reason I sold the press. But it loaded all the ammo I ever needed. Unfortunately the powder measure disliked Unique, on the third squib I sold the press and ordered a 650.

the 650 and 550 use the exact same powder measures.

The 650 is a great press with one tiny flaw, I don't like the priming system. If you miss a case the primer is also rejected. You get used to this though and work around it.

The 650 priming system, while not perfect, is far superior to Hornady's, RCBS's, and Lee's

 

[ReloaderEd]

Progressive Reloading Presses/Speed Vs Quality

Progressive presses and Turret press have their good and bad features. One thing about being Green is the Piggybacks have the fifth station so a powder check die can be used and it is an absolute necessity unless you enjoy using an impact bullet puller and believe me I have.

With the cost of power, primers, bullets and equipment to clean cases it makes sense to get quality reloads (as good or better than factory) out of all the cost or quite frankly it's not worth doing.

Case preparation includes cleaning, polishing (only if you want to do so) sizing, cleaning primer pockets and priming before putting them through the progressive if you want quality of the ammo built in. Of coarse this eliminates the priming problems of the RCBS Piggybacks and increases the speed of final cartridge assembly.

Couple this with the Lee Auto Prime (a very accurate power despensing system) once all the bugs are worked out of it in Station #2 (you must check throw of the powder disc during set up coupled with expansion or belling of the case), The Lee Auto Prime extension is a God send as far as I am concerned it eliminates a lot of problems adjusting adjacent dies. Then the RCBS powder check die in station #3 (station #1 is blank uncless cases need resizing and are already primed). Bullets are seated to the factory specification in station #4 and taper crimped or Lee Factory Crimped in station #5.

General maintenance is important the Green Machines have ratchet wrench type indexers that need nylon insert replacement about once a year. Cleaning upon removing the shell plate is important without losing the spring and ball located below the shell plate.

I found setting up for a different caliber is time consuming and a real pain. That is why I use die plates for each caliber I reload in Pistol only. That is about six or seven calibers. I use the same powder check die lock ring set which sets up each die plate the same for all the different calibers. That saves time. I guess the best rules are: Be Patient and DON'T FORCE ANYTHING!!! If the handle stops for some reason, don't crank it, find out why.

Last but not least, I still use a single press for rifle cartridges because of cartridge length and weighing powder charges. Be Safe

 

[cfullgraf]

Wow, lots of bad info in this thread. It amuses me how bias people are trying to make the press they purchased and are stuck with sound good. "each has pros and cons" --- not true, barely at all.

Wow, quite the statement, but the statement itself is just not true, at least in my case.

When I took the progressive plunge after 29 years of single stage loading i spent several months researching the Hornady L-N-L and the Dillon 650. The Hornady suited my process better, more advantages than disadvantages versus the Dillon. I am very happy with the Hornady. I am not stuck with the Hornady, i could purchase a Dillon 650 if i wanted at anytime I wanted.

The Dillon 650 is a good, well made press with excellent customer service but it does not suit my needs.

That does not mean that someone else won't find the Dillon more advantageous than the Hornady for their process.

While not an apples-apples comparison, i also have a Dillon SDB and like it as well for the purpose that I use it for.

 

[MCMXI]

I loaded on a RCBS rockchucker for about a month then added a RCBS piggyback II progressive unit. I used that set up for 20 years before I broke down and bought my Dillon 650. The 650 is a loading machine and I can load a months worth of shooting in a couple of hours. I still use my rockchucker when I want more precise loads or when I load blackpowder loads.

I started out with an RCBS Rock Chucker single stage almost 20 years ago too. I then added a PiggyBack II progressive conversion unit a couple of years later and I'm still using it today. If I had a case feeder and bullet feeder I could turn out 600+ rounds an hour as well, but since I don't, I produce quality ammunition at about 1/3 that rate. So it takes me an hour to load for a match on the weekend ... not a big deal. However, sometimes I wish that my progressive didn't work so well so that I could justify a nice 650 or similar. I only need moderate volume for .45 ACP and 9mm Luger but it takes about 20 minutes to switch the dies, shell plate, Hornady powder die and priming system. So for me, it's not so much a production rate issue but rather a shear number of handgun and rifle cartridges issue. I use a progressive for the following cartridges:

9mm Luger
.357 Mag
.44 Mag
.45 ACP
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.223 Rem

This means a lot of time spent switching dies, shellplates, powder dies (Hornady) and priming systems. That's the part that gets old. Here's my relic of a progressive press that continues to produce quality ammunition after almost 20 years.

 

[jmorris]

I worry about primer seating depths in the long run. From an engineering aspect this was a huge disappointment as the rest of the press is fantastic from an engineering standpoint.

On every progressive that primes on the up stroke the amount of "push" determines depth, so depending on you they can be and are all over the place. The 1050 primes on the down stroke and you adjust the depth.

Every Dillon measure uses the same sliding bar concept only minor differences in how they are held to the die and early measures didn't have fail safe devices.

I picked up an LNL because everyone talked about how much better the measure was with extruded powders. It hung up/dumped just as much or more powder (old 20# jug of 3031) than the Dillon measures.

The 650 has the best priming system IMO as long as you don't load one at a time as it feeds a primer every time no matter what. To me that is better than a machine that sometimes feeds no primers.

I wasn't too happy to see the plastic tip, that had been the weak link on my SD's priming system, used on my 1050. Some say the brass tube from a 650 will work but I have never lit off a primer while loading and would like to keep it that way.

 

[atblis]

On every progressive that primes on the up stroke the amount of "push" determines depth

I didn't realize you actually try to seat primers to a specific depth. I thought you're supposed to simply "fully" seat them.

The 650 has the best priming system IMO as long as you don't load one at a time as it feeds a primer every time no matter what. To me that is better than a machine that sometimes feeds no primers.

You can keep the 650 from advancing primers. When moving the ram up, before the indexing pawl hits the ramp on the press frame, take your finger and hold the primer indexing pawl up out of the hole on the primer wheel thingy. Just look at how the primer wheel is advanced. It's a ratcheting mechanism, and pretty easy to figure out.

 

[morrow]

I didn't realize you actually try to seat primers to a specific depth. I thought you're supposed to simply "fully" seat them.

Correct, jmorris has no idea what he's talking about

You can keep the 650 from advancing primers. When moving the ram up, before the indexing pawl hits the ramp on the press frame, take your finger and hold the primer indexing pawl up out of the hole on the primer wheel thingy. Just look at how the primer wheel is advanced. It's a ratcheting mechanism, and pretty easy to figure out.

You can also remove the wedge on the right side of the frame, 1 allen bolt, takes seconds. Manually advance the primer if you need to when setting up. Re-install the wedge when ready to crank out rounds.

I picked up an LNL because everyone talked about how much better the measure was with extruded powders. It hung up/dumped just as much or more powder (old 20# jug of 3031) than the Dillon measures.

The LNL powder measure is far from superior. It is nearly the exact same rotor design that has been used for a long time, well known for being poor with extruded powders. The Dillon powder measure is better for extruded powder, but not perfect. There's a few mods you can do to it (like polishing the funnel) that will help a little, but with extruded powder, you will always have a slight variance.

 

[Uniquedot]

Here's the bare facts when it comes to progressives that fit your round per month situation:
Lee 1000: total joke, so many shortfalls it's not even funny. Big priming issues too. You can basically only use 4 of the 5 stations on top of that. Inexpensive

I use all 5 stations on the LM, but have never seen a 5 station pro. I saw that video too, but guess what? it is a 5 station, but like other progressives you are limited to what you can put where. The only thing is that you are limited to what die you can use in station two such as no depriming. There are no big priming issues either as long as it is kept clean.

The 650 priming system, while not perfect, is far superior to Hornady's, RCBS's, and Lee's

How do you know? you obviously have never used any of them except possibly the 650. My LM only feeds a primer if there is a case present and it surely doesn't reject the tiny little pieces of gold when there is no case. It surely isn't a tank like a 650, but it does the same thing. Trolling youtube and certain forums taking the advice of those whom can not follow instructions or understand them does not make you an expert and it's obvious that you have been reading bad info.

 

[ReloaderEd]

Progressive Reloading Presses/Speed Vs Quality

Reading all these posts has helped teach me a lot about the different makes and models of progressive presses.
The priming feature on the various machines seems to be the weak link. The best priming tool ever made in my estimation was the 310 Lyman Ideal tool and I still use it for Rifle cases. You can see the primer as you seat it and have pretty much full control over primer seating.
the Coax Press had an infalible priming system it is too bad some of these cant be incorporated into a progressive press.
However, it all boils down to one statement: Different strokes for different folks. Be Safe

 

[raz-0]

I was able to do 100 rounds in 47 minutes the second time I used my Lee Classic Turret by performing all the operations on the press.

Each to their own preference. That's mine. Some people do like to prime off-press and I don't fault anyone for that.

My auto-indexer has performed flawlessly and my style is amenable to continuous processing rather than batch, though I am pretty happy with either over continuous on a progressive (but my experience with them is limited, I admit).

Respectfully,

Lost Sheep

When I got my turret, lee was using the older see-saw style priming ram. With the tolerances on the casting of the base, for many presses it simply did not work to seat a primer. The newer turrets have a different primer ram that looks much better designed. The newer steel base turrets look much nicer overall than the cast aluminum ones like I have.