Are Higher priced progressives really that much better?
- Thread starter fatty
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Well, I have dealt with 550, 650, and LN primer systems. IMO the 650 primer system is borderline absurd with how it actually handles primers. search for dillon 650 primer problem, and you should get tons of hist that sum up the issues getting the system calibrated. The 550 mainly jsut has issues with the depth adjustment now and then. The LNL AP system is about as simple and straight forward as you can get. However, hornady seems to have given it a bad rep by doing what they do time and again. Namely get a defective, out of spec, or otherwise deficient batch of some component, and shove it out the door regardless. Currently, they have sub plates that are dimensionally incorrect. This results in some people not being able to seat primers below flush. They have had other problems at other times that have been exacerbated by this behavior. With growing popularity, they are also having supply problems. I dunno what happened to their QC, but a lot of crap is getting out the door, and even products missing pieces. I have heard of new LNL AP owners not getting everything in their box. I got two new hornady LNL powder measures. One was missing pieces (fortunately one was for bench use and one to replace my old one on my press and I had enough pieces between the two to do both jobs). I also bough a case feeder last year. Unbeknownst to me, one of the pieces was defective. I didn't know until I was watching a setup video with a close up of the piece and it was apparant mine was missing a critical part.
It's sad, but despite being a generally happy Hornady customer, I'd definitely say buy dillon at the moment.
I can't speak to the RCBS press. As for Lee progressives, the primer system is not why I would avoid them. They are just too fiddly to get working right with all the add-ons. Fully set up, you have a press designed for higher volume production, but not high volume durability IMO. It's a kind of awkward positioning of the product.
All this talk of priming systems is one of the reasons why I'm reluctant to "upgrade" the PiggyBack II. The priming system has worked just fine for a hundred thousand rounds or more without a single inverted or ignited primer. The only issue I have on occasion is if some cleaning media works its way under the priming bar causing a jam. It rarely happens and every priming system is vulnerable to this sort of thing. A bigger issue for me is how primers are able to invert themselves during the loading process with a 650. A friend bought a 650 a few months back I still don't know how he (or his son) manage to put primers in backwards and/or put together loads with too little powder, even with a powder check. :banghead:
I don't see the need for a powder check die. I trust the Redding 10X and BR-30 to drop the correct amount of powder into the case if there's powder in the hopper. If the arm goes up, powder comes down.
joed said:
I don't see the need for a powder check die. I trust the Redding 10X and BR-30 to drop the correct amount of powder into the case if there's powder in the hopper. If the arm goes up, powder comes down.
jmorris
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Pot meet kettle...not only have used or currently own all but one press mentioned in this thread but have loaded more ammo on one or more of them in a sitting than many load in a year, or more.
"Fully" means different things to different people, thus the amount of "push".
Do a search on high primers or primer detonation they are the two extreams of "fully" that people use with any progressive press but a 1050.
Spot on jmorris.
Some people say that by using the set depth system on the 1050 you can load much faster with little concern of over seating the primers.
I have a 550 & 650 and find that depending on what calibre I am loading the required pressure to seat the primer "fully" is different and you need to adapt until you get used to it. Not a big concern just something to watch.
Some people say that by using the set depth system on the 1050 you can load much faster with little concern of over seating the primers.
I have a 550 & 650 and find that depending on what calibre I am loading the required pressure to seat the primer "fully" is different and you need to adapt until you get used to it. Not a big concern just something to watch.
I've never had any primer seating problems with any of the Dillons, they've been flawless.
My favorite is the 1050, that press is the ultimate. It's actually more press then I need but I can live with that real easy. Once set up I've done some pretty big runs of ammo never stopping for adjustments or anything.
The 550 and 650 are very good too. They are faster on caliber changes then the 1050. I've noticed on these I occasionally have to stop and make adjustments but it doesn't slow me down much at all.
I've been extremely happy with the Dillons. Any questions have been quickly answered by their CS. Parts do break and are replaced for free quickly. In 5 years with the 1050 I've not had to replace anything. Probably a good thing as it's a commercial press and parts are not free.
When I went progressive it was a hard decision with the cost. Once I made the plunge I wondered what took me so long.
My favorite is the 1050, that press is the ultimate. It's actually more press then I need but I can live with that real easy. Once set up I've done some pretty big runs of ammo never stopping for adjustments or anything.
The 550 and 650 are very good too. They are faster on caliber changes then the 1050. I've noticed on these I occasionally have to stop and make adjustments but it doesn't slow me down much at all.
I've been extremely happy with the Dillons. Any questions have been quickly answered by their CS. Parts do break and are replaced for free quickly. In 5 years with the 1050 I've not had to replace anything. Probably a good thing as it's a commercial press and parts are not free.
When I went progressive it was a hard decision with the cost. Once I made the plunge I wondered what took me so long.
WyrTwister
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Press
I am considering a progressive Lee Loadmaster . No way I would pay what the others cost .
But I am very happy with my Lee cast iron turret press . Enough so , that I do not know if I can really justafy the cost of a progreaaive .
God bless
Wyr
I am considering a progressive Lee Loadmaster . No way I would pay what the others cost .
But I am very happy with my Lee cast iron turret press . Enough so , that I do not know if I can really justafy the cost of a progreaaive .
God bless
Wyr
atblis
Member
It really comes down to how much you shoot. That also serves to put into perspective the cost of a good progressive. Based on the amount of 9mm and 223 I shoot, the extra cost to have better tools is totally worth it.
Okay, so I spent $1k+ on a XL650 with all the bells and whistles. I plan on using that the rest of my life will will load tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of rounds on it. The cost of the machine is minuscule in comparison to component costs.
Think about the next time you go to buy that new car. If you bought a two year old lightly used one, you'd save $5k to $10k maybe. That will buy you whatever you want short of a Camdex. I am rocking a free 1995 Accord. Three or four months worth of car payments is a Dillon XL650.
I have no desire to piss around with inferior reloading equipment.
Okay, so I spent $1k+ on a XL650 with all the bells and whistles. I plan on using that the rest of my life will will load tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of rounds on it. The cost of the machine is minuscule in comparison to component costs.
Think about the next time you go to buy that new car. If you bought a two year old lightly used one, you'd save $5k to $10k maybe. That will buy you whatever you want short of a Camdex. I am rocking a free 1995 Accord. Three or four months worth of car payments is a Dillon XL650.
I have no desire to piss around with inferior reloading equipment.
LiveLife
Member
As already discussed on numerous other threads, it will come down to comparison like Craftsman vs Stanley vs Mac Tools vs Snap On.
A master mechanic will be able to turn a bolt or nut just as well with a Snap On or Craftsman wrench. But a sloppy shady tree mechanic will skin the knuckles and may blame the injury on "inferior" tools.
I consider my Pro 1000 like a craftsman wrench. Yes, it is not fancy like the highly polished Snap On wrench, but it will still work as intended. The Pro 1000 may lack the appeal, heaviness, or the "bling factor" but it will still produce accurate match grade ammo (For those that were curious at the range/matches, I have offered my reloads for them to do comparison tests with positive confirmations).
I got into reloading so I could produce more accurate match grade ammo than factory at lower cost. To me, holes on target speak volumes and this end result is my ultimate goal of reloading - producing accurate reloads.
Can you produce match grade ammo with the humble "inferior" Pro 1000?
Yes.
Can you mess up your reloads with sloppy reloading practice (regardless of the progressive press used)?
You bet.
A master mechanic will be able to turn a bolt or nut just as well with a Snap On or Craftsman wrench. But a sloppy shady tree mechanic will skin the knuckles and may blame the injury on "inferior" tools.
I consider my Pro 1000 like a craftsman wrench. Yes, it is not fancy like the highly polished Snap On wrench, but it will still work as intended. The Pro 1000 may lack the appeal, heaviness, or the "bling factor" but it will still produce accurate match grade ammo (For those that were curious at the range/matches, I have offered my reloads for them to do comparison tests with positive confirmations).
I got into reloading so I could produce more accurate match grade ammo than factory at lower cost. To me, holes on target speak volumes and this end result is my ultimate goal of reloading - producing accurate reloads.
Can you produce match grade ammo with the humble "inferior" Pro 1000?
Yes.
Can you mess up your reloads with sloppy reloading practice (regardless of the progressive press used)?
You bet.
atblis
Member
A better analogy would be Craftsman ratchets versus Snapon ratchets.
When I went progressive, I wanted to save a little money. I have had no problem with any of the Lee equipment I've bought over the years-at least until that point. Bought a Loadmaster, mounted it on my bench and proceeded to get it set up. 3 days later I was still "getting it set up" after downloading every video on the internet. Finally boxed it up, sent it back, and drank the blue koolaid-Dillon 550B. Had it set up and was reloading on it within 4 hrs. I still buy and like Lee products, I just learned the age old lesson you get what you pay for-Buy once, cry once.
JerryM
Member
I began reloading using a Herter's single stage that did not have any or much mechanical advantage. Them I went to a RCBS RockChucker. When I started shooting my pistols I could not keep up with the 1,000 rnds per month I was shooting.
After looking and asking questions I bought a Dillon 650. It is a great press. I did not get the case feeder and have not missed it.
The problem with the 650 is that changing the primer mechanism for a different primer is a pain. So I bought a 550 off ebay to leave my 650 set up for .45. and everything else I use the 550. Changing primer sizes is not difficult.
In my own case through the years I have found that it is best, for me, to buy something that I will not have to repair or send back and go to that trouble.
In my view Dillon equipment is well worth it. You pay more, but in time you have a pleasant experience using it.
When I decided to go to a progressive press it was my wife that told me to spend the money and get quality. That I would pay for itself in lack of stress because a cheapie would not satisfy.
She was wise.
Many like Lee, and I use their dies, but when it comes to a press go with Dillon for progressives.
Regards,
Jerry
After looking and asking questions I bought a Dillon 650. It is a great press. I did not get the case feeder and have not missed it.
The problem with the 650 is that changing the primer mechanism for a different primer is a pain. So I bought a 550 off ebay to leave my 650 set up for .45. and everything else I use the 550. Changing primer sizes is not difficult.
In my own case through the years I have found that it is best, for me, to buy something that I will not have to repair or send back and go to that trouble.
In my view Dillon equipment is well worth it. You pay more, but in time you have a pleasant experience using it.
When I decided to go to a progressive press it was my wife that told me to spend the money and get quality. That I would pay for itself in lack of stress because a cheapie would not satisfy.
She was wise.
Many like Lee, and I use their dies, but when it comes to a press go with Dillon for progressives.
Regards,
Jerry
Back in the dead of winter I was ready to go full progressive. Case, bullet feeder multiple calibers, quick change out. The whole works. LNL-AP was my choice when it came down to parting with my cash.
Then the unspeakable happened when it was 0 degrees outside. My hvac system let the smoke out. Well crap! Leisurely as I was going to hit the needed buy buttons. A few days latter after having to replace the system I was not flush with cash anymore. Knowing I would not have that type of cash for sometime available to me I bought a well dressed out Classic Turret with the funds I still had. And haven't looked back. I am extremely happy with my purchase. Not what I wanted. But what I need so to speak.
I work in a company the is very gun friendly as we often bring guns to work for show and tell and shoot together some. Also all of them that shoot reload. And we all have common and separate friends and family members also in the game. Within this close and extended group of people there is about any gun or type, brand or bench to be found. You want to test run a 550 or 650,, so and so has them, Lee or Hornady, Foster, RCBS the list goes on. So and So has one. No one ever said my press is better than yours or you have to have this or that. BUT they did seem to bag on the Loadmaster.
One of my coworkers was always interested in shooting and reloading. But because of issues largely begone his control all he had was a C-9 he got used for $50 and I had cleaned up for him. It it impressed with how good it shot for $50.
As it turned out as things settled down in his life he started buying guns and shooting more. As we all found out he had been buying Loadmasters. Built a bench, mounted the press's with coagulators. When he invited a few people over for a loading bench warming party dropped jaws was the norm followed by big smiles as it turned out. He needed no help as it turned out setting up his new Loadmasters and making the work good. He just needed help understanding the load books, die setup and how to work up a loads. His bench has worked great since that night back in the depths of winter. The Loadmasters keep putting out the ammo in 9mm, 45acp, .357 and .223. One for each caliber.
The short of the long,,, I'm buying a gaggle of Loadmaster's when I revisit adding progressive press's to my loading room.
Then the unspeakable happened when it was 0 degrees outside. My hvac system let the smoke out. Well crap! Leisurely as I was going to hit the needed buy buttons.
A few days latter after having to replace the system I was not flush with cash anymore. Knowing I would not have that type of cash for sometime available to me I bought a well dressed out Classic Turret with the funds I still had. And haven't looked back. I am extremely happy with my purchase. Not what I wanted. But what I need so to speak.I work in a company the is very gun friendly as we often bring guns to work for show and tell and shoot together some. Also all of them that shoot reload. And we all have common and separate friends and family members also in the game. Within this close and extended group of people there is about any gun or type, brand or bench to be found. You want to test run a 550 or 650,, so and so has them, Lee or Hornady, Foster, RCBS the list goes on. So and So has one. No one ever said my press is better than yours or you have to have this or that. BUT they did seem to bag on the Loadmaster.
One of my coworkers was always interested in shooting and reloading. But because of issues largely begone his control all he had was a C-9 he got used for $50 and I had cleaned up for him. It it impressed with how good it shot for $50.
As it turned out as things settled down in his life he started buying guns and shooting more. As we all found out he had been buying Loadmasters. Built a bench, mounted the press's with coagulators. When he invited a few people over for a loading bench warming party dropped jaws was the norm followed by big smiles as it turned out. He needed no help as it turned out setting up his new Loadmasters and making the work good. He just needed help understanding the load books, die setup and how to work up a loads. His bench has worked great since that night back in the depths of winter. The Loadmasters keep putting out the ammo in 9mm, 45acp, .357 and .223. One for each caliber.
The short of the long,,, I'm buying a gaggle of Loadmaster's when I revisit adding progressive press's to my loading room.
SilentVectorX
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- Oct 24, 2010
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- 36
I'm currently using a Pro1000, because saving up for an XL650 w/casefeed is going to take MONTHS. Meanwhile, the $150 Pro1000 has already made about 600rds of 9mm in the last week. I haven't had any primer problems because I keep the tray at least full enough to have the whole ski-ramp filled. I take my time, about 6-10 seconds per pull, and feel for primer seating/sizing/etc.
When economics come into the game I need to add a little more. My Lee Pro 1000 costs $.03/round at the 5000 round point. The LNL adds $.05/round to that for $.08/round. And the Dillon 550 $.02 more cents per round bringing it up to $.10/round. That's just the press packages. With WWB .40SW at $29 per 100, and all in for press and components and accessories I am at $.25/round at the 5000 round point with the Lee Pro 1000. To go the Dillon 550 (and most Dillon supporters here are pushing the 650) I might as well buy the WWB cause at 5000 rounds I still haven't paid off the press. Now at 10000 rounds and 20000 rounds the economics are much more favorable. At the 10k level the Lee Pro100 is adding less than a cent to each round. The LNL is $.02 and the Dillon is $.025. Cut those numbers in half for 20k. I buy off the net in bulk for components to reduce hazmat fees and buy good stuff. Buy I track those hazmat fees and shipping costs and include them in my cost per round.
So think about how much you're going to reload over your life and do the numbers. I need at least a year to pay off the press with volume. Two to three years for the better presses at the levels I shoot.
I am cheap and look for value. I was a garage mechanic and know the value of a good tool. I buy just about every type of tool (mechanical or electric) I currently need at Harbor Freight, and on sale at that. They all work fine and I'm not a professional so their duty life is more than adequate. I think the same way about this stuff. I shoot about 500-600 rounds a month. For me the Lee Pro 1000 system made the most economic sense and the best sense from my reloading process (size and deprime on single stage, clean cases, prime with hand primer, use progressive to charge, seat, crimp).
In college I didn't have the bucks or the room to have a reloading area. I used a basic Lee Loader that I think I paid $10 for. Loaded hundreds of rounds of .41 mag with that and was always happy with loads. I was shooting on the ROTC pistol team at that point and had all the other kinds of ammo I wanted to shoot provided by the tax payer.
Will the Lee Pro 100 be my last progressive? Hard to tell. My current timeline is 25 more years or so if I'm lucky. Certainly conditions are good to shoot a pretty good chunk of that. If the Pro 1000 dies, then I'll reaccess. So far though I don't have issues with operations, and I am am enjoying reloading again.
So think about how much you're going to reload over your life and do the numbers. I need at least a year to pay off the press with volume. Two to three years for the better presses at the levels I shoot.
I am cheap and look for value. I was a garage mechanic and know the value of a good tool. I buy just about every type of tool (mechanical or electric) I currently need at Harbor Freight, and on sale at that. They all work fine and I'm not a professional so their duty life is more than adequate. I think the same way about this stuff. I shoot about 500-600 rounds a month. For me the Lee Pro 1000 system made the most economic sense and the best sense from my reloading process (size and deprime on single stage, clean cases, prime with hand primer, use progressive to charge, seat, crimp).
In college I didn't have the bucks or the room to have a reloading area. I used a basic Lee Loader that I think I paid $10 for. Loaded hundreds of rounds of .41 mag with that and was always happy with loads. I was shooting on the ROTC pistol team at that point and had all the other kinds of ammo I wanted to shoot provided by the tax payer.
Will the Lee Pro 100 be my last progressive? Hard to tell. My current timeline is 25 more years or so if I'm lucky. Certainly conditions are good to shoot a pretty good chunk of that. If the Pro 1000 dies, then I'll reaccess. So far though I don't have issues with operations, and I am am enjoying reloading again.
This is in my thought process as well. Besides my Herters no. 3 single stage I added a Lee Deluxe three hole turret for $70 and some extra turret plates that were on sale for $7.50 each. Mounted that press yesterday and while simple and straight forward, certainly adequate for belling, seating and crimping along side my Herters powder throw. If I ever get serious about .45ACP or even more serious and begin to load .380 I'll look at another Pro 1000 or two. Why hassle with the change-over issues; just keep them dedicated for very few dollars.
RustyFN
Member
Curious why you don't consider loading 2 to 3 time faster an advantage?
Whiskey11
Member
Old Stumps, I'm not sure I follow your math. Buying components locally (and more expensively) I can produce 50 rounds of .45ACP for 10.54$ Considering the average cost of WWB .45ACP 230gr loads is about 27-34$ depending on where it is bought; I can reload 1275 rounds of .45ACP and pay for the cost of my Hornady (at 420$ after tax). After that, it's all "savings."
And yes, Savings, because as I said earlier, at SOME point you run out of steam during a shooting day and you cap out how much shooting you can do. For me that is about 500 rounds of .45 ACP and shooting anything beyond that is wasting ammo. So if I load in 500 round intervals, and all of my brass is not new (either range pick up or once fired from factory, although none of my brass is once fired now ;P) it takes me two and a half reloading sessions to pay for the press. Considering I've owned my Hornady LNL AP for less than a month and reloaded 1350 rounds already, I think I've recouped the cost of my press already so I no longer factor it into my cost of ammo. Dies too as they where used on my Lee Single Stage back when I only had 350 pieces of brass. Now I have 685 from just being lucky at the range
That however does not mean that I don't want to expand my caliber footprint to another caliber. It would be nice to add a 9mm to spend even less on ammo than I am now
And I've seen the Lee Pro1000 and to be honest I wish I could say I was impressed. I'm all for economical but there are reasons why I chose the Hornady LNL AP over the Loadmaster or Pro1000 presses. I much prefer the half stepping indexing to full step indexing as it saves from spilling powder. I like the caliber change over is quick. I like that both a bullet feeder and case feeder are options that can be added later. I think the primer system is a KISS solution to a very complex problem and it is well made and easy to maintain.
I DONT like the way the Lee Loadmaster does it's primer operation and I DONT like the way it indexes. Both the full step indexing and the handle operated index feature which seems cheesy to me. I'm sure it loads great ammo, but I'd rather pay more for a much more refined press with all of 6 pieces of plastic in the entire press. The Handle, The powder measure reservoir, the cap to the primer tube assembly, the pulley bushing on the primer slide, the primer slide rod's top end cap and the weighted rod for the primers. I wonder how many pieces of plastic are in the Lee presses that are in wear spots. Because on the LNL AP only the pulley bushing on the primer slide is in a spot where it will wear out with use and even then I doubt it will in my lifetime and I can't say that about the Loadmaster.
And as I've said before, the LNL AP isn't perfect either, I have 3 primary gripes and two have fixes that are easy to take care of, the 3rd requires a little more engineering.
And yes, Savings, because as I said earlier, at SOME point you run out of steam during a shooting day and you cap out how much shooting you can do. For me that is about 500 rounds of .45 ACP and shooting anything beyond that is wasting ammo. So if I load in 500 round intervals, and all of my brass is not new (either range pick up or once fired from factory, although none of my brass is once fired now ;P) it takes me two and a half reloading sessions to pay for the press. Considering I've owned my Hornady LNL AP for less than a month and reloaded 1350 rounds already, I think I've recouped the cost of my press already so I no longer factor it into my cost of ammo.
Dies too as they where used on my Lee Single Stage back when I only had 350 pieces of brass. Now I have 685 from just being lucky at the range That however does not mean that I don't want to expand my caliber footprint to another caliber. It would be nice to add a 9mm to spend even less on ammo than I am now
And I've seen the Lee Pro1000 and to be honest I wish I could say I was impressed. I'm all for economical but there are reasons why I chose the Hornady LNL AP over the Loadmaster or Pro1000 presses. I much prefer the half stepping indexing to full step indexing as it saves from spilling powder. I like the caliber change over is quick. I like that both a bullet feeder and case feeder are options that can be added later. I think the primer system is a KISS solution to a very complex problem and it is well made and easy to maintain.
I DONT like the way the Lee Loadmaster does it's primer operation and I DONT like the way it indexes. Both the full step indexing and the handle operated index feature which seems cheesy to me. I'm sure it loads great ammo, but I'd rather pay more for a much more refined press with all of 6 pieces of plastic in the entire press. The Handle, The powder measure reservoir, the cap to the primer tube assembly, the pulley bushing on the primer slide, the primer slide rod's top end cap and the weighted rod for the primers. I wonder how many pieces of plastic are in the Lee presses that are in wear spots. Because on the LNL AP only the pulley bushing on the primer slide is in a spot where it will wear out with use and even then I doubt it will in my lifetime and I can't say that about the Loadmaster.
And as I've said before, the LNL AP isn't perfect either, I have 3 primary gripes and two have fixes that are easy to take care of, the 3rd requires a little more engineering.
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i don't see turrets being 2 to 3 times faster than a single stage. Maybe a smidge faster but I really don't think enough to make difference. My shotshell reloaders operate comparable to a turret press and the best I can do on them is about 100 rounds per hour. Yes, you stroke the shot shell handle a time or two more than a metallic cartridge turret press but that is not much time.
It's the non-productive time during a reloading session that kills the rate. For me, the total time spent reloading determines the production rate, not just the time pulling on the handle.
With my single stage press, I can switch on the lights in my reloading room then switch them off one hour later and have 100 rounds loaded and everything cleaned up and put away.
For my money, skip the turret and go straight to a progressive. Which I did. I load rifle on a single stage and hand gun on a progressive.
But lots of folks like turret presses. Just offering another opinion.
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atblis
Member
We'll assume 5 operations for needed to make a loaded round
Single Stage-->5 handle pulls, 5 swap the case in/out
Turret-->5 Handle pulls, 1 swap case in/out.
XL650 w/ Case Feeder--> 1 Handle Pull, 0 swap case in/out.
What I like about having a full on progressive is not only speed, but the reduction in fatigue of doing repetitive motions requiring dexterity. If I never have to handle a case, that takes a lot of wear and tear off of me. Add a bullet feeder, even better.
Single Stage-->5 handle pulls, 5 swap the case in/out
Turret-->5 Handle pulls, 1 swap case in/out.
XL650 w/ Case Feeder--> 1 Handle Pull, 0 swap case in/out.
What I like about having a full on progressive is not only speed, but the reduction in fatigue of doing repetitive motions requiring dexterity. If I never have to handle a case, that takes a lot of wear and tear off of me. Add a bullet feeder, even better.
RustyFN
Member
You are obviously a lot better than me on a single stage press. There is no way I can load close to 200 rounds per hour at a safe comfortable pace. I can load close to 200 per hour on my Lee classic turret hour after hour at a safe comfortable pace. For me it is close to three times faster.
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