Are there any modern service pistols in 7.62x25 Tokarev?

[dcarch]

I am a proud owner of a Kimber Custom II .45, and I love all things .45, but I got to shoot a CZ 52 in 7.62x25 Tokarev the other day, and I was very, VERY impressed by the laser-like accuracy and penetration of the 7.62x25 round. That got me thinking, what with the dirt-cheap costs of 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo, has any firearms manufacturer announced plans to build a modern pistol in 7.62x25? I personally wouldn't mind seeing a Glock in that caliber, but I guess I'll just have to wait... Does anyone else here share my love for the 7.62x25?

 

[bigfatdave]

Does anyone else here share my love for the 7.62x25?

I do, and a lot of people who know and understand surplus do as well.

I am not aware of anything currently being produced in Tok but would be delighted to see something come out and more modern ammo production.

It will be a sad day when the surplus Tok ammo runs out, I suspect the current ammo prices will rise sharply when they no longer have to compete with spam-cans of corrosive surplus.

Correction on modern production:
There is at least one guy making AK variants in Tok (I think he has a source of demilled PPS43 parts he adapts to cheap AK receivers) Video
The Sterlings available through some online dealers are either new production or cobbled together form surplus parts, I don't know, and I've never seen one in person. They're homely, but might be fun range toys.

 

[Quiet]

The only "new" 7.62x25mm pistols currently being made are pistol versions of the PPS43 and Sterling Mk 7. They are put together using used surplus subgun kits with US made recievers & US made non-chrome lined barrels.

Because the overall length of the 7.62x25mm is longer than the majority pistol cartridges it can not be readily adpatable to currently available handguns.

Since, the overall length of the 7.62x25mm is shorter than the 5.7x28mm cartridge, it could be adapted to the FN Five-seveN pistol.

 

[kludge]

I want a Tok carbine, make it operate like a .30 Carbine, 14" barrel (16.2" for non SBR), 4 to 4.5 lbs, double stack 30 round mags.

 

[PTK]

I want a Tok carbine, make it operate like a .30 Carbine, 14" barrel (16.2" for non SBR), 4 to 4.5 lbs, double stack 30 round mags.

Then build one - it would be more straightforward to just use the PPSh 43 mags, magwell and a converted bolt, though. Doesn't need to be a locked system of operation, but if you want to go that way I'd recommend going with an AK bolt, carrier, and FCG instead of making it work like a M1 Carbine. Shouldn't cost too much to make, nor take too much effort.

 

[kludge]

I probably used the wrong word "operate". I should have said manual of arms.

 

[Snowdog]

About 6 months ago I stumbled upon a YouTube video of a fellow with both a Glock 20 and 1911 converted to 7.62x25. I haven't seen anything on the subject since.

 

[wally]

It will be a sad day when the surplus Tok ammo runs out, I suspect the current ammo prices will rise sharply when they no longer have to compete with spam-cans of corrosive surplus.

Nah, the brass cased non-corrosive is readily available now for ~$20/50 in the same ballpark as any other centerfire pistol ammo other than 9mm or .40S&W.

I want a Tok carbine, make it operate like a .30 Carbine

CNC Gunparts makes a 7.62x25 AR upper. I've got one and it works great! Uses PPSh 43 mags with a simple modification to engage the AR mag catch.

 

[otomik]

Since, the overall length of the 7.62x25mm is shorter than the 5.7x28mm cartridge, it could be adapted to the FN Five-seveN pistol.

i don't think so. that's a thin barrel and the five-seven pistol uses a form of blowback that probably can't handle such hot rod cartridge.


a modern pistol in 7.62mm tok would be a better than a five seven. modernize a c96 with a extending shoulder stock and you have a great pdw.

 

[otomik]

Beware, tho, if the resulting loads will pierce a Threat Level IIA vest, you are committing a Federal Felony by possessing them.

***. a regular tokarev round will penetrate IIA. IIA ain't that tough at all.

 

[Quiet]

About 6 months ago I stumbled upon a YouTube video of a fellow with both a Glock 20 and 1911 converted to 7.62x25. I haven't seen anything on the subject since.

Chatter on another forum, indicated he could get 6 rounds into the modified 15 round 10mm Glock magazine. Only six rounds because the 7.62x25mm cartridges had to be seated at an angle in order to fit in the magazine.
Chatter also said their were numerous FTF issues.

don't think so. that's a thin barrel and the five-seven pistol uses a form of blowback that probably can't handle such hot rod cartridge.

The FN Five-seveN magazine well and magazines are long enough to accomodate the 7.62x25mm cartridge, however you would need to fabricate a new slide/barrel/lock-up system to accomodate the 7.62x25mm.

a modern pistol in 7.62mm tok would be a better than a five seven. modernize a c96 with a extending shoulder stock and you have a great pdw.

I agree.

 

[otomik]

coming soon: The New FN Seven-Five pistol!

 

[otomik]

No handgun ammo may be legally possessed by a civilian if it will do that. Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code, I believe.

there has to be some misunderstanding because any regular tokarev can do that, can bust through a 55-gallon barrel and still come out and kill a guy to quote a john woo film.

 

[mongo4567]

katad - that's the law. No handgun ammo may be legally possessed by a civilian if it will do that. Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code, I believe. A Google search should tell you pretty quick. The law used to be that as long as the bullet wasn't made of steel, bronze, brass, or iron, it was legal. But it got changed. I suppose by the 86 Firearms Act (which I think is the Dole Amendment, which was mostly pro-gun).

Provide a link to that "law" please

 

[Deanimator]

Beware, tho, if the resulting loads will pierce a Threat Level IIA vest, you are committing a Federal Felony by possessing them.

Really?

So then everybody with a Remington XP100 is a felon?

How about every long range handgun silhouette shooter with an XP100 converted to .308 or .358, or even .458 Winchester?

How about the Thompson-Center Contenders converted to the dozen or more high velocity handgun hunting and silhouette cartridges from JDJ and others?

Don't confuse what Diane Feinstein WANTS with actual LAW.

 

[PTK]

that's the law. No handgun ammo may be legally possessed by a civilian if it will do that. Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code, I believe.

Quote the precise law or, respectfully, stop spreading misinformation.

Also, yes, it's in 18 USC, along with a few thousand other laws. Sort of like telling someone what you think a word means, but they changed it, but it's in the dictionary, so...

The actual law you're trying to quote, by the way, is 18 USC Section 921, 17, B.

(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge
cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in
any firearm.
(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence
of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
projectile.

(C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun
shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations
for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target
shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is
primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other
projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is
intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

So, as you can see, you're incorrect. The law hasn't changed, hasn't been modified, and no handgun ammo is banned except by those standards - which are actually quite specific and only truly restricted a few novelty rounds.

A careful reading of the law shows that if you wanted AP handgun ammo, you simply have to add lead and use a relatively lightweight jacket. A steel, tungsten, or even DU rod for penetration are all legal if you have lead or other non-banned material and a 24% jacket weight or less. They wanted to specifically ban THV and "donut cutter" ammo in handguns.

 

[dogtown tom]

Horsehockey.....

Dang you PTK! You beat me!

katad that's the law. No handgun ammo may be legally possessed by a civilian if it will do that. Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code, I believe. A Google search should tell you pretty quick. The law used to be that as long as the bullet wasn't made of steel, bronze, brass, or iron, it was legal. But it got changed. I suppose by the 86 Firearms Act (which I think is the Dole Amendment, which was mostly pro-gun).

Fail. Fail. Fail.
No Federal law bans possession or use of armor piercing handgun ammunition by civilians. The sale of such ammunition (for handguns) by a licensed dealer or manufacturer IS regulated.

A Google search DOES NOT tell you that pretty quick, it tells you just the opposite.

The law CONTINUES to define "armor piercing ammunition" as follows:

Title 18 US Code Chapter 44 Section 921 (a) 17 (B)
The term "armor piercing
ammunition" means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core
which may be used in a handgun
and which is constructed entirely
(excluding the presence of traces
of other substances) from one or a
combination of tungsten alloys,
steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium
copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger
than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and
whose jacket has a weight of more
than 25 percent of the total weight
of the projectile.

There is no need to Google when you can get this information easily directly from the ATF website:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

[PTK]

Not true, I've seen it in the Code. I'll be back with the quote. Wanna bet big bucks on it?

I'd take you up on that, but internet gambling is illegal in my state.

Hell, I'd be willing to bet a nice, round, figure, like... your gun collection against mine. That'd be big bucks.

You're 100%, entirely, wrong. It's my job to know things like this off the top of my head and keep up-to-date.

To make it clear, you believe that any ammo that can penetrate IIa armor, fired from a handgun, is clearly illegal, and that you believe the 1986 FOPA introduced this, and that the relevant information is clearly in USC 18... somewhere.

 

[dogtown tom]

katad:... I'll be back with the quote...

55 posts in twelve hours.
Dude you don't have time to do research.

 

[dogtown tom]

katad I'll just have to go look it up in the books. The online access sucks. I've seen it in the 2007 Federal Criminal Code. I remember being upset that they had changed the law about AP ammo, cause I had SD loads that would do this, but were not illegal under the old law. I really have no idea what law changed it. It's possible that the authors of the code didn't remove portions that were put there by the 1994 Assault rifle ban, and that resulted in what I read. If it's not illegal, great. But I know what I read.

The online access only sucks when you don't know where to look.

All you need to do is open this link to the Federal Firearms Regulation Guide:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Then go to the Index at the very end. On page 228 is "Armor Piercing Ammunition" and every reference to AP is shown with citations to the applicable law, regulation, as well as rulings, procedures and industry circulars.

 

[dcarch]

Could anyone else see a company like Taurus coming out with a modern 7.62x25 pistol?

 

[Deanimator]

Could anyone else see a company like Taurus coming out with a modern 7.62x25 pistol?

No, but I could see Norinco doing it. You just won't be able to buy one.

Of course the Chinese could probably lean on Obama hard enough to make him remove the import ban if they chose to, not by itself but as an overall strongarm move regarding trade and our growing debt to them.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

No, but I could see Norinco doing it. You just won't be able to buy one.

Of course the Chinese could probably lean on Obama hard enough to make him remove the import ban if they chose to, not by itself but as an overall strongarm move regarding trade and our growing debt to them.

I would be so fine with that. Now if only Russia could bully us into allowing non-sporting config Saigas.

 

[Col. Plink]

why not just buy a dang CZ-52?

 

[macadore]

I realize it would require paper work and a tax stamp, but if that were done, how difficult would it be to purchase a PPS-43 (http://store.prairiearms.com/store/product/118787/IOI-PPS-43C-7.62X25-4-35RD-MAG/) and replace the welded folding stock with one that would work correctly?