Are you a marksman or a paper hole puncher?

[Wllm. Legrand]

A discussion in another forum raised an issue I think about when I read posts on this and other forums.

The issue of "accuracy" in rifles and handguns is often discussed as if it were the be-all and end-all of the exercise. It is as if the accuracy of the gun is treated as the defining characteristic of shooting. Bench-rest shooting, in particular, but ISPC pistol shooting (with super-tricked out, scoped handguns one would never wear,etc.), to me, seem to me to be interesting, but tangential to the true goal of real marksmanship. Since your body is part of the shooting platform, and bench-rest shooting attempts to put the shooter's body out of the equation, it does not seem to contribute much in the way of practical marksmanship, though certain aspects DO apply (judging wind, knowing ballastics of your load as two). Using a scoped handgun, or using one of the monstrosities that are used for olympic .22 shooting also seem to be interesting "sports", but only tangentially related to practical marksmanship.

Personally, I almost never use the shooting bench for that reason. I've rarely found one in the field, therefore, unless I am sighting in a weapon, I do not use it. Those that pursue accuracy from the bench I think are missing a significant part of the Big Picture. IMHO, shooting from improvised field positions, under pressure of time, at unknown distances, and with ONE shot, is good measure of what you can do with a rifle. A lot of what I see at the range is fun, but I don't see much application to develpopment of the skills of practical marksmanship.

Am I a lone voice (other than others that have absorbed Cooper's teachings) in the wilderness?

 

[Janitor]

A lot of what I see at the range is fun

Then there ya have it.

Some people just find it fun to go and plink. Why do they have to have the same practical purpose for being there that you or I might have?

 

[Igloodude]

Am I a lone voice (other than others that have absorbed Cooper's teachings) in the wilderness?

Yes.

Okay, no, not really, you make some good points. But, my own primary marksmanship arena is Bullseye, standing and shooting one-handed (generally with a scoped pistol) at non-moving targets with relatively large amounts of time and opportunity to focus and concentrate. Prior to getting into Bullseye, I shot for watchstander qualification in the Navy every year, and barely attained the minimum score every year. Post-Bullseye introduction (and I'm definitely no X-ring wonder there), the Navy qualification course is child's play to me.

Certainly red-dot sights, flared grips, consistent course of fire, and other things will never show up in real practical shooting scenarios, but marksmanship is too all-encompassing a term to leave the non-practical disciplines out of it completely.

 

[MDG1976]

Not everyone is a Commando (or a wannabe). I find it very relaxing to sit at the bench, tune out the rest of the world and punch some holes.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Then there ya have it.

Some people just find it fun to go and plink. Why do they have to have the same practical purpose for being there that you or I might have?

I didn't say they "have to" have high skill development in mind....only that it makes sense to me. Such people would fit into the hole-puncher category.

And of course casual plinking shooting is fun...We all engage in that at some time or another. My point is that many aspects of the shooting sports are given importance out of proportion to their significance to the whole, i.e., skilled marksmanship as either a goal in itself or as a skill subsumed under another objective (say, being a good hunter).

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Not everyone is a Commando (or a wannabe). I find it very relaxing to sit at the bench, tune out the rest of the world and punch some holes.

Obviously a hole puncher...

 

[Berek]

Am I a lone voice (other than others that have absorbed Cooper's teachings) in the wilderness?

Not entirely. When I teach my students about marksmanship, we discuss the importance of shooting with what you will have and what you will be wearing in the field when you practice.

As for the use of the shooting bench, there are some good advantages, especially while learning. A shooting bench provides a stable surface that you can rest your firearm on allowing you to get used to the various aspects of shooting without worrying about dropping the firearm. For example, I own a .300WSM and it has quite a kick. If someone wanted to shoot it but was not accustomed to such a large rifle, I would put them up on a bench. That way, they could practice all of the other accuracy techniques (breathing, squeezing, etc.) and not worry about dropping an $800 rifle that kicks like a mule.

During our demonstrations, I will fire 3 rounds from the .300WSM from the bench and then move to the ground. The reason for this is that we fire several different firearms from .22LR to .357Mag lever to .410 lever to .45-70, 20 ga., 12 ga., and the .300WSM. Each one has a different feel. Sooting 3 from the bench safely puts me back in the mindset of what I'm about to do "freeform". With that many different firearms, you sometimes forget which one kicks how much.

When we let the students shoot, shotgun is "freeform" while rifle starts on the bench and moves to the ground. The students have even commented that they appreciate the bench first to get them used to the rifle.

And, finally, using the bench is the easiest way to get your firearm sighted in. Once you have it where you want it from the bench, move to the ground and finish your sighting in and practice to get used to shooting for the field.

At least, this is how my teaching partners and I do it. We find it less intimidating for the students when shooting the .300WSM and the .45-70 Sharps.

But that's just my $0.02...

 

[ID_shooting]

I do most of my recreational shooting off a "bench", tuck hood, ATV seat, bipod legs on a rock. I have found that I can usually find a good rest anywhere, even when hunting. I carry cross sticks, I also use a bipod, I have even used my back pack, just lay it on the ground and go prone. My hunting style doesn't allow for a lot of snap shots at close range so it doesn't affect me a bunch. I prefer to "snipe" game trails, power line swaths, and open fields from the fringes of cover.

 

[merk]

I just go to put a few hundred rounds through whatever im shooting. At the moment im not too concerned with aiming at a BG's eyeball.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

I do most of my recreational shooting off a "bench", tuck hood, ATV seat, bipod legs on a rock. I have found that I can usually find a good rest anywhere, even when hunting. I carry cross sticks, I also use a bipod, I have even used my back pack, just lay it on the ground and go prone. My hunting style doesn't allow for a lot of snap shots at close range so it doesn't affect me a bunch. I prefer to "snipe" game trails, power line swaths, and open fields from the fringes of cover.

Now, now..a REST in the field is NOT a bench. Don't put words in my mouth...Of course, in the field one uses what one can to get steadier...if you can.

 

[beaucoup ammo]

Both

I punch holes at the range near our home...get a little more serious at the ranch (don't make as many trips as I'd like).

Hitting a mangy coyote at 150 yds with an old, open sight Springfield 30-06 is my "best shot." Rested on a mesquite fence post.

And, to be honest, I believe luck had a lot to do with that!

Take Care

 

[JohnBT]

"Those that pursue accuracy from the bench I think are missing a significant part of the Big Picture."

You assume because you only see them at the range shooting off a bench that it's the only shooting they do. You might be mistaken. Could be they have other places available to shoot offhand or prone, but the only access to a sturdy bench is at the range. You just never know.

I'm still thankful I learned to squirrel hunt with a rifle as a wee child. The discipline and techiques I learned have carried over into all forms of shooting.

John

 

[cracked butt]

I like to go to the range and blast away at imaginary communist space alien zombies who are coming at me in a wave attack.

 

[TheEgg]

One of the great things about our sport is that it encompasses such a wide range of possible activities.

Each of us is free to pick and choose our favorite activities.

IMHO, there is no one "true goal" in the shooting sports as your post states. It may be YOUR true goal, but that is not binding on any of the rest of us.

Pursue your goal, enjoy it, and let the rest of us do our thing.

 

[Infidel]

I prefer not to belittle others' shooting activities for the sake of dogmatic sanctimony and self-righteousness.

 

[springmom]

Benches are very useful

A discussion in another forum raised an issue I think about when I read posts on this and other forums. <snip>

Since your body is part of the shooting platform, and bench-rest shooting attempts to put the shooter's body out of the equation, it does not seem to contribute much in the way of practical marksmanship, though certain aspects DO apply (judging wind, knowing ballastics of your load as two). Using a scoped handgun, or using one of the monstrosities that are used for olympic .22 shooting also seem to be interesting "sports", but only tangentially related to practical marksmanship.

Personally, I almost never use the shooting bench for that reason. I've rarely found one in the field, therefore, unless I am sighting in a weapon, I do not use it.
Am I a lone voice (other than others that have absorbed Cooper's teachings) in the wilderness?

They hold my purse, my ammunition, and my diet Cokes.

Seriously, at the range I use, you're not supposed to shoot "from the bench" with a handgun at all. Which is not to say people don't, they just don't if the range officer happens by. When I am shooting rifles, I do not use the bench if I'm getting prepped for hunting. If I'm plinking with the .22, yes, I use the bench most of the time.

I am the ONLY shooter I have EVER seen standing with a rifle at that range, though, and I go there quite a bit, so you're not a LONE voice, but we are in the minority, at least around here.

Springmom

 

[cracked butt]

I forgot to add, I remove the sights from my guns to practice instictive shooting in case my scope and/or iron sights are irreparably damaged from combat. This is true marksmanship

 

[cracked butt]

I practice all of this by shooting standing on one leg in case one of my legs is blown of by a laser cannon. I make sure to get 100 reps on each leg per session. Anyone who practices anything less is not a marksman, but a paper puncher who has a really big suprise coming to them in the very near future.

 

[ball3006]

I consider myself a marksman......

however, old eyes, 62, prevent me from long range shooting with iron sights. Too bad as my favorite shooting is done with milsurps. I can still hold my ground with optic equipped firearms though. Otherwise, I just paper punch or metal clang.....chris3

 

[tegemu]

I am proud to be a "Paper hole puncher" and take great pride in my consistant ability to place holes alllllllllll over the paper, not just in one small cluster in the center. There is already a black circle there so why put holes where it is difficult to see them. Seems like the rest of the target is going to waste.

 

[Beav]

Paper puncher myself but working on being a marksman.

 

[BigRobT]

It all depends on what I'm shooting, why, and many other reasons. Every other week, I go to a handgun shoot that gives a variety of situations. All standing and all with iron sights. If I'm tweaking in my shotgun or rifle, I start with the bench, then transition to sitting and then standing. Defensive shooting has it's place for those that have a Permit to Carry, CHL, or CCW.

 

[bdutton]

I am an avid bullseye shooter. .22 and .45 are my range staples. Off-hand from 50 feet up to 50 yards.

I am classified as a master indoor/outdoor by the NRA.

I like the challenge of hitting as many tens as my mind and body will allow.

Beyond that, I sometimes like to shoot rifle or pistol in various calibers just to 'punch holes'.

It's all good.

 

[1911Tuner]

Cooper's Wisdom

One statement that I happen to completely agee with:

"Pinpoint accuracy from a defensive sidearm is like absolute top speed from a pickup truck. Interesting, but irrelevant."

 

[hksw]

Personally, I don't do much walking field hunting myself. Nor do I carry. Should I not be shooting at all then? (Considering you think shooting off of a bench is useless.)

As with most activities, there are different aspects and disciplines that individuals can go into that would suit them mentally and physically. Personally, I think you should shoot in that manner that is confortable to you in whatever field you like. The most important factor being having fun.