Armed neighbors erroneously detain would-be suspects

[Sam1911]

I'm wondering how this would have played out had the couple who were changing locks actually been burglars. What if they broke into some other homes in the area that night or previous nights? I don't think the man and his son would be in trouble if that was the case.

You certainly do reiterate an important point. As I said previously:

I'm sure those two helpful neighbors believe they were clearly seeing a felony in action. They took what possibly could have been a lawful action to stop that breaking and entering and arrest (detain for the police) the "perpetrators" -- if only they'd guessed RIGHT and that's what was happening. They believed they understood what they were seeing. The difference between perception and reality is going to make them felons.

If the Kalonjis were accosted and detained at gunpoint by the local police, a) the matter would likely have been handled much more professionally and less traumatically, and b) the local police would be indemnified against the charges and lawsuits impending for slightly overzealous and assertive action (so long as they were following department policy).

It is not unreasonable for someone to notice "suspicious" activity nor to report it, nor for someone to investigate it. When the investigating someone is a sworn law enforcement officer there are structures in place which guide the interaction and protect everyone involved. When it is some citizen taking that action, there may (or may not!) be a narrow path by which he/they do everything just right, their suspicions are confirmed, and their actions are justified. But stray but a hair off that path and disaster awaits!

 

[JRH6856]

If the Kalonjis were accosted and detained at gunpoint by the local police, a) the matter would likely have been handled much more professionally and less traumatically, and b) the local police would be indemnified against the charges and lawsuits impending for slightly overzealous and assertive action (so long as they were following department policy).

Of course, when the police did arrive, the Kalonjis weren't treated much better.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

how did the cops screw the pooch so badly? are they from the same very slim genetic tree the the morons next door are from? contact the son? verify? some cop(s) would be hunting work or working as crossing guards

 

[Sam1911]

Of course, when the police did arrive, the Kalonjis weren't treated much better.

Certainly true -- and those officers may indeed be deemed to have exceeded their department's policies and will have to defend their actions without benefit of indemnification. But that's unlikely. In all likelihood their department will consider their actions based on the information they had at the time, and decide to limit their punishment to a harshly worded reprimand in their personnel file. The Kalonjis probably can't even bring a civil suit against them.

The Canoles' on the other hand...

 

[sonick808]

all things considered, if you're making your inaugural trip to your new pre-owned house and property, it might be prudent to bring a copy or the original paperwork of the sale with you. The Kalonjis are still in the right, but a little common sense to bring paperwork would have gone a long way here.

 

[JRH6856]

Expectations. The Canoles probably had the expectation they might someday need to exercise their "2A rights" to protect their neighbors. The Kalonjis probably never expected the neighbors to show up with guns. Depending on where they were from, they may have actually expected the neighbors to mind their own business and ignore them.

Either way, your own expectations can be your worst enemy.

 

[Kleanbore]

Certainly true -- and those officers may indeed be deemed to have exceeded their department's policies and will have to defend their actions without benefit of indemnification. But that's unlikely. In all likelihood their department will consider their actions based on the information they had at the time, and decide to limit their punishment to a harshly worded reprimand in their personnel file. The Kalonjis probably can't even bring a civil suit against them.

That would protect the individual officers, but it would not defend the community against suits from the Kalonjis.

 

[Deanimator]

Ninja leaping into cover with two idiots covering you with AR 15s and shooting them both a compact handgun would work? Yeah right, who said there was even good cover around them? I don't know about you but I can't jump out of the way of a bullet that close. Just like bringing a knife to a gun fight, don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight.

I always LOOK for cover.

Maybe it has something to do with having been in the military...

 

[Sam1911]

That would protect the individual officers, but it would not defend the community against suits from the Kalonjis.

Oh certainly. My point was that the "point men" making the decisions in real-life were largely personally shielded from the fallout of even fairly serious mistakes if they were officers of the law, and completely, horribly exposed if they were merely a couple of citizens taking a huge risk.

The analogy that comes to mind is that of the Canloes' walking into a casino and putting their life savings, deed to their home, wedding band, freedom, and the possibility of life as a convicted felon on one spot on the Craps table because they just KNOW their number will come up. And the table payout for all that risk is that they'll have protected a vacant building belonging to someone else's bank.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Sam1911: The analogy that comes to mind is that of the Canloes' walking into a casino and putting their life savings, deed to their home, wedding band, freedom, and the possibility of life as a convicted felon on one spot on the Craps table because they just KNOW their number will come up. And the table payout for all that risk is that they'll have protected a vacant building belonging to someone else's bank.

That's a very good way to look at it indeed.

It should make anyone think twice before (1) drawing a firearm for any purpose other the defending himself or someone he or she knows, and (2) acting without first making every attempt to avoid confrontation before resorting to deadly force. that's why we say that ADEE is the school solution here.

It should most certainly dissuade any reasonable civilian from deciding to take the law into his or her own hands and to pursue or detain someone.

And it just describes the serious risks of criminal prosecution and civil awards that the actor faces should he or she come away physically unscathed. I'm always amazed at how many people seem to believe that heading out with gun in hand somehow does not entail the very serious risk of ambush or of being shot by a first responder already summoned, or by an armed citizen. That firearm does not ward off dangerous projectiles.

I have begun to believe that the predilection that some citizens seem to have for armed intervention, for trying capture miscreants, and for abandoning a defensive position to seek out an intruder stems in part from watching too much screen fiction.

 

[mgmorden]

Ninja leaping into cover with two idiots covering you with AR 15s and shooting them both a compact handgun would work? Yeah right, who said there was even good cover around them? I don't know about you but I can't jump out of the way of a bullet that close. Just like bringing a knife to a gun fight, don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight.

I always LOOK for cover.

Maybe it has something to do with having been in the military...

Military service doesn't make cover grow where there is none, nor grant the ability to dodge bullets a la "The Matrix". The Kalonjis handled the situation about as good as you can hope for here.

 

[X-Rap]

If the Canoles would have been checking on an empty rent house on their own property it still would have been illegal to hold the other party at gun point in many locals. Just because you are invoking "citizens arrest" doesn't give you the right to use deadly force to enforce it on a property crime.
Similar situations come up around here, my dad and his elderly in laws live on the same property and we try to keep the shysters away from the oldsters. The persistence of some in ignoring signs and gates is amazing. It would be ridiculous to confront every trespasser with a gun in hand and no doubt result in some charges at some time but it would also be foolish to approach strangers in a rural setting unarmed.
Similar trespass situations occur multiple times a year but mostly during hunting seasons.
A call to the SO has to rise to a certain seriousness and I'm sure some others who live in a big county will understand about response times in the country.

 

[Kleanbore]

We've had five pages of discussion of what has to be one of the most idiotic uses of firearms reported in recent years, and (another) extensive discussion, this time very well illustrated by way of example, of the already well-known pitfalls of effecting citizens' arrests.

The Canoles are now out on bond; there have been no news reports regarding this incident for the better part of a week.

So--we'll close this one for now.

There will be more news, though that could take months. Should anyone come upon anything new, please PM Fred Fuller, Chindo18Z, or me and we will post it here and if appropriate, reopen the thread for further discussion.

Thanks to those who have participated.

 

[Kleanbore]

One piece of the mess has reportedly been resolved in a most amazing way. According to this report, the Calzones and the Kalonjis have reached a neighborly accord, embraced, and wished each other well. The Calzones have given the Kalonjis a cake, and the Kalonjis say that the Calzones will not face a civil suit from them.

Further, the Kalonjis say they are willing to testify on the Calzones' behalf on the serious criminal charges.

There's one more shoe to drop. Keep us informed if you see any additional reports.