Army opposes legislation to release surplus pistols to CMP?

[USAav8r]

I've got to speak up on behalf of the armed forces. I've had the honor of serving with highly trained (door kickers, trigger pullers) service members in all branches. While I will not argue that the majority of the armed forces is informed and care about the constitution, I will submit to you that the majority of the armed forces that makes up real combat power does indeed care.
Leadcounsel is right. There are plenty in it for free college, a job, etc.. There is however a smaller, but more determined, professional, percentage of soldiers, marines, and airmen that have the same concerns voiced here.

 

[Averageman]

I've got to speak up on behalf of the armed forces. I've had the honor of serving with highly trained (door kickers, trigger pullers) service members in all branches. While I will not argue that the majority of the armed forces is informed and care about the constitution, I will submit to you that the majority of the armed forces that makes up real combat power does indeed care.
Leadcounsel is right. There are plenty in it for free college, a job, etc.. There is however a smaller, but more determined, professional, percentage of soldiers, marines, and airmen that have the same concerns voiced here.

As someone who worked in many 1911A1's in the Military, I can assure you that every one I touched had a serial number. That's exactly how we signed them in and out of the Arms Room.
I highly doubt that when put in storage the serial numbers were removed, That I am sure is exactly how they are accounting for them.

This is a lot of Huffington Horsepucky and not the facts.

As far as what USAav8r said;
I've got to speak up on behalf of the armed forces. I've had the honor of serving with highly trained (door kickers, trigger pullers) service members in all branches. While I will not argue that the majority of the armed forces is informed and care about the constitution, I will submit to you that the majority of the armed forces that makes up real combat power does indeed care.
I would have to agree with one caveat. The further you get away from those who are actually serving on combat arms the more likely you are to find a Politician in Uniform who is working his way up the ranks for personal gain rather than selfless service.
And;
Leadcounsel is right. There are plenty in it for free college, a job, etc.. There is however a smaller, but more determined, professional, percentage of soldiers, marines, and airmen that have the same concerns voiced here.
When we encountered "These Guy's" in the units I served in they were usually subject to enough peer pressure to either get out or change their attitudes and get with the program.
A well oiled machine is only as good as it's weakest link. The pressure was to fix the machine in order for all of us to come home safely and with all our parts intact.

I don't need or even want another 1911, but with this kind of malarky going on; I will proudly purchase one. The only thing I hate more than liberals is liberal gun grabbing jack wagons in camouflage. Oh yeah, that and the Huffington Post.

 

[MAKster]

The "untraceable" BS in the Huff Post article is a reference to the fact that CMP is not a FFL and not required to follow the laws about record retention that FFLs deal with. They create this hypothetical situation that if one of these 1911s were recovered at a crime scene and the police contacted CMP with the serial number and asked them for the purchasers name CMP would refuse to provide the info. In reality CMP probably keeps better records than most FFLs and wouldn't refuse a trace request from ATF.

 

[bainter1212]

I purchased my M1 from the CMP years ago. Went again to purchase an accessory or two from them recently and they still had all my info in their system.

 

[A Pause for the Coz]

One of a Generals greatest fears is a solder who is armed when they are not under his orders.
Thats why they lock them all up every day.
Cant imagine they think any differently about us.

 

[digsigs226]

indoctrinated into the "cover your ass" mentality.

Yes, and when gun murders occur 20 times more often using a handgun than with a rifle, the issue of surplus pistols becomes a political hot potato...

 

[leadcounsel]

A few points to hit:

Someone mentioned theft and punishment. Doubt anyone here thinks minor theft should be ignored. As a very experienced trial lawyer, I've seen and am aware of the UCMJ being harshly applied and ruining the careers of Service Members in violation of quite trivial theft (on the grand scale) - for instance an underpaid private stealing some gear to pay his car loan, so he can get to work and not get in trouble. Yes, that is wrong and needs to be addressed. I suspect the point the poster was making is that there is a double standards when those at the top are exempt from any discipline for massive waste, fraud, abuse, etc.

As for waste/fraud/abuse - Good Grief. In my 7 years of active duty I observed BILLIONS of dollars in wasteful spending, fraud, and general abuse. And I heard a ton of reliable stories of sickening waste/fraud/abuse. Everything from burning and burying perfectly good equipment in theater so we didn't need to bring it home, to abandoning equipment or "gifting" it to the locals who would just strip it and sell it for profit. Billions in vehicles and weapons turned over all over the world... I'm SICK of waste, big and small, in the .gov. and it should be stamped out down to the penny.

As for the condition of these 1911s... I have no idea. But, we stopped using 1911s in mass quantities decades ago. But I'm generally aware the Army kept ordering them. I 100% believe there are a wide range of 1911s from abused to brand new. On my last deployment in 2010-2011, one of the SF guys in my unit was carrying a brand spanking new 1911, that had a serial number dating back - according to his research - to WWII. It was never issued until 2010. I held that gun in my hands, and can confirm that it appeared brand new with mild handling marks and had a very low serial number. I also saw a bunch of 1911s in the inventory of various conditions. So, they are a mixed bag.

 

[USAF_Vet]

A pox on all that voted for him.

How dare you speak ill of the dead?

 

[swopjan]

Someone mentioned theft and punishment. Doubt anyone here thinks minor theft should be ignored. As a very experienced trial lawyer, I've seen and am aware of the UCMJ being harshly applied and ruining the careers of Service Members in violation of quite trivial theft (on the grand scale) - for instance an underpaid private stealing some gear to pay his car loan, so he can get to work and not get in trouble. Yes, that is wrong and needs to be addressed.

Careers can be ruined for much less than that. I personally know a former Marine armorer who was charged with larceny for having a couple of pieces of fired brass in his barracks room. Wasn't his first screw-up but having paperwork done over ten cents' worth of brass when all that wasteful spending goes on is sickening.

 

[we are not amused]

Since the Military is Civilian controlled, and it's top commanders are chosen by the President with the advice and consent of Congress, it always reflects what it's political masters want. Such as a emphasis on political correctness, gender neutrality, suppression of Christianity and so on. This will go on until the Civilian leadership changes.

If the Civilian leadership changes, then the military leadership will change.

Until then, expect them to be anti-gun, and politically correct even at the cost of their war fighting ability.

This isn't a knock on those serving, just a realistic appraisal of the cost of Civilian control of the military, not that I would have it any other way, but there are cost associated with it.

 

[Jeff White]

As for the condition of these 1911s... I have no idea. But, we stopped using 1911s in mass quantities decades ago. But I'm generally aware the Army kept ordering them. I 100% believe there are a wide range of 1911s from abused to brand new. On my last deployment in 2010-2011, one of the SF guys in my unit was carrying a brand spanking new 1911, that had a serial number dating back - according to his research - to WWII. It was never issued until 2010. I held that gun in my hands, and can confirm that it appeared brand new with mild handling marks and had a very low serial number. I also saw a bunch of 1911s in the inventory of various conditions. So, they are a mixed bag.

The last new 1911A1s were built in 1945. The ones that were put into storage were brought up to new issue standards by the arsenal before being stored. That doesn't mean they were all refinished. They would only refinish a weapon if a certain percentage of the original finish was worn off. They were inspected and any parts that weren't up to standard were replaced.

This doesn't mean that pistols weren't drawn from depot and rebuilt by unit armorers or contractors to certain specs for certain units in SOCOM. I doubt that any of those pistols are in the batch that CMP wants.

 

[leadcounsel]

This thread isn't complete without pictures. So, I have a picture from one of the inventories I did in Iraq. This was my SF Battalion and I personally took this picture from an inventory I conducted.

You can see on the bottom of our box of surplus guns from our arms locker, there are 4+ 1911s. Hard to see from the pictures, but these have several upgrades and appear in very good condition.

I'd suspect that if the military released 1911s to the CMP, we'd get a mixed back from worn to near-new. And the CMP is a great organization that would test them all, make the inoperable ones into parts to build operable ones, and sell them all at very reasonable prices. It really is a win-win in so many directions.

 

[Thermactor]

Our President has just come out against this idea, saying the following;
these guns are unregistered
they will be mailed to homes with no background checks
it would cause mass chaos

http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/17/obama-administration-opposes-cmp-handgun-sales/

 

[Thermactor]

I have a friend who served in Vietnam as a Navy Seabee and he brought back an AK/Variant that he said he "liberated" from the enemy. I'm not sure how he got into the US, but he did.

I know of a Vietnam veteran who claimed to have an auto M16 brought back from Vietnam, that will never see the light of day.


He was known to have stories that stretched the truth a liiiittle bit.

 

[goon]

Having the CMP break with the normal system they use for rifles and just transfer the 1911's through FFL's would circumvent the whole problem. They'd all definitely have a brand new paper trail then and the buyers would have a background check. This whole thing is just too easy to work around.

I'd even be fine with a great many of them going to museums for free. They are part of our history - school kids everywhere should be able to gawk at them.

Also, I notice a couple SIG M11's and a couple Browning Hi Powers in Leadcounsel's pic. His unit has good taste.

 

[Thermactor]

Having the CMP break with the normal system they use for rifles and just transfer the 1911's through FFL's would circumvent the whole problem. They'd all definitely have a brand new paper trail then and the buyers would have a background check.

Did you miss something from the CMP's procedures for rifles?
This is from their page.

The information you supply on your application will be submitted by the CMP to the FBI National Instant Criminal Check System (NICS) to verify you are not prohibited by Federal, State or Local law from acquiring or possessing a rifle. Your signature on the Purchaser Certification portion of the purchase application authorizes the CMP to initiate the NICS check and authorizes the FBI to inform CMP of the result. IMPORTANT: If your State or locality requires you to first obtain a license, permit, or Firearms Owner ID card in order to possess or receive a rifle, you must enclose a photocopy of your license, permit, or card with the application for purchase.

They already DO the NICS check.
Source: http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/eligibility-requirements/
The only 'thing' about the CMP is that they send the rifle to your door. That's not much of a novelty. People get guns delivered in the mail all the time as C&R FFLs, or getting them back from manufacturers or gunsmiths for servicing.

 

[goon]

Actually, I didn't know CMP did a NICS check. Good to know, but why not just go to local dealer and fill out a 4473, then take your shooter grade 1911 home? It's not that big of a deal, is it?

Really, they are being unfair about it. The vast majority of these will never "hit the streets" and everyone knows it.

But we have to be realistic about it too. If they're going to agree to anything, it'll probably not include UPS dropping these highly politicized and public 1911's off at your door.

 

[Nanook]

When I was younger, I owned a military grade canteen I purchased from an army surplus store.

Little did I know how much danger I was in. Good thing I got rid of that thing. It's for the children, you know.

It's the Huffington Post, what else can you say?

 

[Coop45]

Sounds like all the real generals and admirals have been kicked out and only the butt kissers remain.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

When I was at Fort Carson in the mid-1980s, Range Control screwed up and sent a couple of prairie dog shooters out to a training area that was being used by a unit for training. The shooters got to the training area, saw the troops, never fired a round, and went back to Range Control.

Did the Commanding General ream out the morons at Range Control? Did ROAD (retired on active duty) NCOs pay the price for their screw up? NO! Of course not!

The CG banned all hunting on Fort Carson with any rifle larger than a .22 LR, leaving shotguns and handgun hunting in place unchanged! This was less than a month before the opening of pronghorn antelope hunting season on post, too! The CG apparently thought, or was told, that hunting pronghorn antelope was just like hunting deer, so a shotgun with slugs was perfectly adequate.

Stupidity.

 

[RonSC]

Pardon me , as I'm a little late for the party here but "untraceable"..??? Doesn't CMP require completion of Fed form 4473 for all transactions? Additionally any CMP weapon I've ever seen still had SERIAL NUMBERS. !! What am I missing here.
Alas that "kinder gentler army" originally brought to you by the likes of Lt. Gen Wesley Clark and his ilk is still alive and well.

 

[SSN Vet]

One thing many people don't understand, that above the rank of Seaman Apprentice or private, the armed forces are, and always have been, political.

 

[herrwalther]

One thing many people don't understand, that above the rank of Seaman Apprentice or private, the armed forces are, and always have been, political.

I would say the ranks that start to get political are a little higher in the Army. Once you start getting into Staff Sergeant (E-6) it becomes more about the paperwork and less about the soldiers and training.

It is without question that the CMP uses higher standards for who they deal with than the standard FFL. It wasn't until probably the 4th or 5th time I combed through their website before I realized I was eligible to purchase from CMP because of my military affiliation. As there must be documentation of safe firearm handling and association with an affiliated group.

1911s in the military...personally I have never seen one in a weapon vault. I am sure they exist somewhere though. I came across a 1911 replica (aka rubber duck) during one large inventory. Even that had a serial number that appeared on the record books as a sensitive item. Even though it could never be fired.

 

[Deanimator]

It doesn't surprise me the Army would have a problem with this.

More likely the army was TOLD TO HAVE a problem with this.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

I know of a Vietnam veteran who claimed to have an auto M16 brought back from Vietnam, that will never see the light of day.


He was known to have stories that stretched the truth a liiiittle bit.

Well, he showed me the gun, I have no reason to doubt where he got it.