eric.cartman
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Are you a software developer by any chance?
Arnold is a traitor. Don't let your gunmaker be too
- Thread starter The_Antibubba
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Are you a software developer by any chance?
Prince Yamato
Member
Maybe in the early 1990s. Not any more. I think by now, most people know that California is run by total fruitcakes.
chipperi
Member
Hopefully the USSC sides on the side of the 2nd in the DC case so someone in California can try it as an unconstitutional gun ban being that the technology either doesn't exist or doesn't function.
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Ed Ames
Member
California is a lot more complicated that people credit. Most of the state (by area) affords freedoms I certainly don't have here in Texas. When I wanted to go shooting in California I just drove out into the desert and set up some targets. Nobody bothered me. Nobody cared. Occasionally someone else would drive out to the same general area and we'd wave at each other but that was it. Try that in North Texas. Try it anywhere in Texas. At the same time most of California (by population) is extremely urban. Since moving I've really had to school myself not to bust out laughing every time someone says how big and crowded Dallas is -- where I grew up we had about the same population as Texas (the whole state) crammed into an area about the size of Connecticut (which is smaller than Texas 
).
Urbanization is happening everywhere. Our population is increasing and our land area is not. There are more people per square mile. That's happening fast in Texas, which is poised to overtake California as the population center of the USA. Those new Texans are moving to the cities and they are increasing the urbanization. That means they are displacing shooting ranges and packing together tightly enough that you can't shoot in your yard any more. Sorry.
Urbanization reduces the opportunities for positive contact with guns. If I was in a rural area I'd probably spend part of the afternoon today shooting. I'm not so I won't. Millions of people who used to shoot don't any more because of that. Urbanization also creates opportunities for fear-association that drives people to think they need guns now. That may be good in the short term but in the long term I'm not convinced. You've got to give people a positive reason they *like* to go shooting or they'll just say "yeah I need this while someone else has it, but I'd prefer if they were all melted down."
The brightest trend I've seen is the increasing popularity of sporting clays and similar games as legitimate alternatives to golf. I've seen California high tech professionals who were raised anti-gun actually become enthusiastic about shooting in that context. Cowboy action is another good one that was growing in popularity in California when I left. Fun, non-threatening, positive uses for firearms. Experiences that give positive images to counteract the negativity provided by friends (anti-gun peer pressure is very strong) and the media.
I still say California is just ahead of the curve and the difference between "may" and "shall" is largely academic in the long run. I hope I'm wrong. I guess I'll just have to wait 70 years to find out.
). Urbanization is happening everywhere. Our population is increasing and our land area is not. There are more people per square mile. That's happening fast in Texas, which is poised to overtake California as the population center of the USA. Those new Texans are moving to the cities and they are increasing the urbanization. That means they are displacing shooting ranges and packing together tightly enough that you can't shoot in your yard any more. Sorry.
Urbanization reduces the opportunities for positive contact with guns. If I was in a rural area I'd probably spend part of the afternoon today shooting. I'm not so I won't. Millions of people who used to shoot don't any more because of that. Urbanization also creates opportunities for fear-association that drives people to think they need guns now. That may be good in the short term but in the long term I'm not convinced. You've got to give people a positive reason they *like* to go shooting or they'll just say "yeah I need this while someone else has it, but I'd prefer if they were all melted down."
The brightest trend I've seen is the increasing popularity of sporting clays and similar games as legitimate alternatives to golf. I've seen California high tech professionals who were raised anti-gun actually become enthusiastic about shooting in that context. Cowboy action is another good one that was growing in popularity in California when I left. Fun, non-threatening, positive uses for firearms. Experiences that give positive images to counteract the negativity provided by friends (anti-gun peer pressure is very strong) and the media.
I still say California is just ahead of the curve and the difference between "may" and "shall" is largely academic in the long run. I hope I'm wrong. I guess I'll just have to wait 70 years to find out.
Creature
Member
Already passed?
My understanding is that AB 1471 has passed the California Senate and is back in the Assembly...and has yet to be forwarded to "Governator"...
My understanding is that AB 1471 has passed the California Senate and is back in the Assembly...and has yet to be forwarded to "Governator"...
Zundfolge
Member
If we don't punish gun manufacturers that comply with this new California law, we WILL have this crap from coast to coast. Period.
The idea really isn't to punish the "bad" gun makers, its to get as much of the firearms industry on our side as possible ... imagine if every gun manufacturer put their foot down and said NO! to California ... that might make these kind of laws less attractive outside of California.
But if most gun manufacturers knuckle under and start making microstamping guns, then there will be no reason in the minds of fence sitting citizens and politicians coast to coast not to start demanding this crap nation wide.
And when that happens you can kiss goodbye the days of inexpensive handguns and we're one step closer to tyranny.
The idea really isn't to punish the "bad" gun makers, its to get as much of the firearms industry on our side as possible ... imagine if every gun manufacturer put their foot down and said NO! to California ... that might make these kind of laws less attractive outside of California.
But if most gun manufacturers knuckle under and start making microstamping guns, then there will be no reason in the minds of fence sitting citizens and politicians coast to coast not to start demanding this crap nation wide.
And when that happens you can kiss goodbye the days of inexpensive handguns and we're one step closer to tyranny.
kcmarine
Member
I think it's important that the gun companies REMEMBER RONNIE BARRETT'S LEAD.
langenc
Member
"You are mad, I am mad but the problem here is some are feeling to need to punish someone, ANYONE, over this.
""The gun makers are not the ones that should be punished.
You have any idea what this is going to cost them already? There will be some gun makers that won't be able to survive this transition."
I dont take this as punishment cause someone passed a dumb law. What is being said is the IF you gnmaker go along with the stupidity I will buy someone elses.""
If everyone goes CA compliant where will we get our guns. And we all know that guns will now go up for those complying cause it will cost more to make them and someone has to pay. What percent of guns S&W (or anyother) supplier makes go to CA how much will they loose?? Ill bet they can get by without it, or raise the price 5-10 bucks and use that to cover the CA "loss".
""The gun makers are not the ones that should be punished.
You have any idea what this is going to cost them already? There will be some gun makers that won't be able to survive this transition."
I dont take this as punishment cause someone passed a dumb law. What is being said is the IF you gnmaker go along with the stupidity I will buy someone elses.""
If everyone goes CA compliant where will we get our guns. And we all know that guns will now go up for those complying cause it will cost more to make them and someone has to pay. What percent of guns S&W (or anyother) supplier makes go to CA how much will they loose?? Ill bet they can get by without it, or raise the price 5-10 bucks and use that to cover the CA "loss".
CleverNickname
Member
Yeah, the California may-issue permit system enacted in 1923 was a real big improvement over the Vermont-style system they had before that!
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
That has zero to do with politics.
Texas was nearly all railroad land and none was set aside as public use land. California's political landscape is not why you can shoot on public use lands and one more apples to oranges comparison.
Well when you can walk into the Sheriffs office in LA and be guaranteed you'll be issued a CCW let me know.
That's hardly academic.
only1asterisk
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I will not purchase a firearm of any kind from a company that produces a "microstamping" model or sells non-microstamping guns to state, county or municipal governments in CA after this law takes effect. The same with the lead ammo ban.
The fifth largest economy will have to do without new guns for while or gunowners will need to display their displeasure in a meaningful way.
David
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TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Again and again, no one is going to do without guns. All the hundreds of models on the CA DOJ list will continue to be sold in CA, just like this mess had never happened.
Ed Ames
Member
Actually, that's a great example of what I'm talking about with California being more complicated than people seem to understand. LA is a true urban area... I kid you not, if you take the L.A. Metro area you have a very large fraction of the entire population of Texas in an area smaller than most eastern states. That really does impact the politics, it reduces the chance of positive contact with guns, it changes perceptions, it allows an anti-gun culture to flourish because nobody has much opportunity for positive contact with them. The people are anti and they elect anti people.
Don't like it? Escape from LA.
Many areas of California are basically shall issue. Where I lived was basically shall issue. The reason California has complicated laws and allows local discretion in areas like CCW permits is that the state is politically several states all rolled into one. If they didn't have that then everyone in CA would be EVEN MORE dominated by the population centers.
Except... LA is growing. There are more and more places like LA. The USA is urbanizing. Move out of LA without addressing the forces that make places like LA anti-gun and you are just delaying the inevitable. Where are you going to escape to next time? And after that? I left the LA metro for an outlying area and the metro problems followed (about 10 years later). I've now left the state but I have no comfort that the pressures of urbanization are easing. I think LA is still following but maybe this time it will take 70 years IF nothing gives guns a more positive image.
I'm not saying that nobody is addressing those issues. I'm saying that acting petulant and ranting against Arnold because he signed laws that legislators have been able to pass and would be able to pass again isn't addressing those issues. It's a waste of energy.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I agree with you completely on that one. He seems like a crappy gov, but powerless for the most part. This stuff is hardly his fault. Lots of things had to go wrong for that thing to land on his desk.
Green Lantern
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Er, I obviously am 100% behind the OP.
What I fear is that rather than bothering to make "Cali Models" and "Free State Models" of everything, the makers will go to ALL Cali models! Especially since they can charge God-knows how much MORE for them!
As for companies being "punished" and losing a TON of money by writing California off - Honestly - How can the market in ONE STATE compare to the market of FORTY-NINE of them???
For those that choose to disparage the actions of Ron Barrett - well, how many cops use 50 cals, exactly? Now, how many carry a sidearm???? BIIIIIG difference!
Barrett is a man of principle, and I think he realized that the world wouldn't end for Cali PD's without Barrett rifles. But if we can even get one or two of the BIG suppliers of handguns to California on our/his side....!
What I fear is that rather than bothering to make "Cali Models" and "Free State Models" of everything, the makers will go to ALL Cali models! Especially since they can charge God-knows how much MORE for them!
As for companies being "punished" and losing a TON of money by writing California off - Honestly - How can the market in ONE STATE compare to the market of FORTY-NINE of them???
For those that choose to disparage the actions of Ron Barrett - well, how many cops use 50 cals, exactly? Now, how many carry a sidearm???? BIIIIIG difference!
Barrett is a man of principle, and I think he realized that the world wouldn't end for Cali PD's without Barrett rifles. But if we can even get one or two of the BIG suppliers of handguns to California on our/his side....!
only1asterisk
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Until they are declared "unsafe" and dropped from the list or the law is altered slightly or the manufacturer wants to make a improvement or cosmetic change (requiring recertification).
David
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
This is amazing. So many of y'all think that because California passed a law that we should punish non California gun companies with boycotts if they comply with the law. Y'all have lost your good sense of judgment as to cause and effect, guilt and innocence.
Personally, I thought the gun makers were our allies. They make that which we use for our 2nd Amendment rights. So if they make guns that comply with California laws, y'all are suggesting we attack them and hurt them financially until they cave in to our demands or collapse. That is just fricking brilliant. Basically what this tells me is that when many gun owners get hysterical, they eat their own.
If Arnold is a traitor as is the California Legislature, then why the hell are we not doing something against them?
As for Ronnie Barrett, like I said above, what he did was nice and all, but it really wasn't that big of a deal. It involved only a few rifles. It was a symbolic gesture only. It didn't actually accomplish anything. Police departments were still able to get Barrett parts and rifles. They just didn't get them for a discounted price direct from Barrett. So big fricking deal. No departments did without Barrett rifles.
Personally, I thought the gun makers were our allies. They make that which we use for our 2nd Amendment rights. So if they make guns that comply with California laws, y'all are suggesting we attack them and hurt them financially until they cave in to our demands or collapse. That is just fricking brilliant. Basically what this tells me is that when many gun owners get hysterical, they eat their own.
If Arnold is a traitor as is the California Legislature, then why the hell are we not doing something against them?
As for Ronnie Barrett, like I said above, what he did was nice and all, but it really wasn't that big of a deal. It involved only a few rifles. It was a symbolic gesture only. It didn't actually accomplish anything. Police departments were still able to get Barrett parts and rifles. They just didn't get them for a discounted price direct from Barrett. So big fricking deal. No departments did without Barrett rifles.
CNYCacher
Member
Absolutely! +1
This entire idea is based on the assumption that if the gun makers comply, then anti-gunners in other states will take up the idea and try this in other states.
*** do you think will happen if your boycott campaign is successful and suddenly there are no handguns sold in Kommifornia?
This isn't about punitive measures against gun/ammo manufacturers. It is one arrow in our quiver. There needs to be serious and immediate ramifications for this legislation. California is a LOST CAUSE. We only need to show the rest of the Union that there will be significant pain and discomfort if they foolishly follow California.
However, we must also offer the velvet glove. We should selflessly support our local manufacturers, we should stop wasting our time proselytizing those on the Dark Side and instead convert the unknowing to our cause. We need to take someone to the range who doesn't know which end of the barrel the bullets come out of. Just the look on their face when they feel the excitement is enough, let alone knowing that there is someone else to call for support when the need will come.
The tide is changing, though the immediate future looks bleak, I believe that we will be successful in the end.
However, we must also offer the velvet glove. We should selflessly support our local manufacturers, we should stop wasting our time proselytizing those on the Dark Side and instead convert the unknowing to our cause. We need to take someone to the range who doesn't know which end of the barrel the bullets come out of. Just the look on their face when they feel the excitement is enough, let alone knowing that there is someone else to call for support when the need will come.
The tide is changing, though the immediate future looks bleak, I believe that we will be successful in the end.
Green Lantern
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ZeSpectre
Member
I'm in with those who want to find a way to express our dismay with this situation WITHOUT "eating our own".
Let's not allow zeal to do our cause even more damage than the enemy plans.
Let's not allow zeal to do our cause even more damage than the enemy plans.
Zundfolge, do you really believe that a few boycotting rubes have anywhere near the economic power of California LE, who buy handguns by the dozens, hundreds, and thousands?
This state is the seventh largest economy in the world, and you can be assured that what happens here gets the attention of the world. So if you think you're going to somehow be exempt from this microstamping foolishness, wait until Hillary is in the Whitehouse. Hillary, Nancy, and Harry can put the smackdown on your 'free states'. And they will.
This state is the seventh largest economy in the world, and you can be assured that what happens here gets the attention of the world. So if you think you're going to somehow be exempt from this microstamping foolishness, wait until Hillary is in the Whitehouse. Hillary, Nancy, and Harry can put the smackdown on your 'free states'. And they will.
Zundfolge
Member
If we in the RKBA movement are nothing but a "few rubes" than we're already so completely and utterly screwed that we might as well all turn our guns in now, stop voting and become vegans.
I will agree that extending the boycott to those that supply LEAs in the PRK is probably too much ... we need to focus our ire on those that manufacture microstamping guns.
This is what I don't get about many of our RKBA brethren in the PRK ... y'all have lost and lost BIG and your only response is to gloat about how the rest of us in "free America" are next.
You guys should just stop supplying the CA government with your tax dollars, move out here to free America with the rest of us (hell, enough of your idiotic state-mates have come to my state and started screwing us blue) and fight the fight from a position of strength instead of fighting a dead cause.
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